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Old 05-09-2010, 09:28 AM
 
5,430 posts, read 4,668,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Since Christ has ransomed all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:6 we now see how it is that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4).
The price has been paid for all to come to God through Jesus' blood sacrifice. It's God's desire that all come to repentance and be saved. But, it must be done of our own freewill. God can only work with us as we work with him. Each time God knocks on our heart, and we reject it, that knock grows fainter. If we reject Him enough, He will eventually shut us out. We become the walking dead, reserved for eternal judgement.

Since you believe "all" means "all", then you will have to concede that "all" liars are going to the lake of fire.

Rev. 21
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As you can see, only those who overcome will be sons and daughters of God.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There is no assumption on my part. The Scriptures are very clear. Look at every Old Testament verse where "ransom" is used and you will see that every animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. .
Could you provide us these specific verses to analyze?

Quote:
It is obvious that Paul is looking beyond John's Revelation.
When death is destroyed, in 1 Cor 15, it is after Christ has handed over the kingdom to God, thus concludes the "milennium". This is consistent with the close of Revelation 20, after Death and Hades are destroyed. So we must conclude that Revelation 21 is post "milenium", in the New Heavens and Earth.

Quote:
I do believe people will go to the lake of fire during the new earth age or "ever". They will go there just before the millennium "ever" is ending and for the duration of the new earth "ever" and thus they will be there for "ever" and "ever."
Yet the LOF exists in the New Heavens and Earth, after Death is destroyed, and after the milennium.

Quote:
We must not conclude that "for ever and ever" means "eternity." If one "ever" in "for ever" is eternity, then how can there be another "ever" after it if eternity never ends? The word behind "ever" is "aion" or "eon." The Bible says all the eons end therefore there is no eternal eon. Therefore "for ever and ever" can't possibly mean "for eternity."
Like any novice scholar can see, just because a word is rooted with another word such as aionios-aion, doesn't imply that that is the direct and ONLY definition of the term. Context continously defines it.

Quote:
Also, the lake of fire is called "death."
No...the process of verb action of Death and Hades thrown in the lake of fire is called the second death.

Quote:
If you look at 1 corinthians 15:22-28 you will see that that death is going to be done away and all will be subjected to Christ and God will be All in all.
True, but in the New Heavens and Earth death is destroyed so therefore Revelation sees past Paul Corinthian letter.

Quote:
Now you can believe that due to Christ ransoming all mankind and therefore all mankind must be freed that God will have all mankind to be saved.
Now you can believe that Revelation 20 is post milennium, post death is destroyed, and is the where God is all in all, and there is a city, where death is destroyed, but outside those city gates are those who don't believe in Christ, and suffer the second death, where in all said above are in the age that never ends Dan 7, Zech 14, Rev 22, Eph, Isa 45, Eph 3, and there is still sin, sorcery, whoremongering, idolatry, and those people who refuse Christ are "thrown into the lake of fire" which is the second death.

Now wasn't that easy?
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,756,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well of course you can only believe all men will be saved if you fully ignore the Scriptures. Even 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us God (WANTS) all men to be saved. Yet what God wants, and what man decide are two different things. And what does Jesus Christ Himself tell us?

Matthew 7:13,14

13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life. (AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.)

Clearly Jesus Christ Himself tells us, that only a few will be ransomed, and only a few will enter the strait gate.
These verses were always a major sticking point for me when I was arguing with the universalists. I could never seem to get a straight answer from them about it. But now that I see things differently, I understand what it means. You have to look at the meanings of the words used, like Eusebius showed you, in order to fully understand what is being said here.

There will be MANY who have not accepted Christ in their lifetime that enter through the wide gate. But nowhere in these verses does it say they will not be reconciled. There will be a time for refinement, each person will have a specified time after judgment, and then they will be reconciled to God. These verses do not say that anyone is going into eternal hellfire. But Eusebius has already covered this quite well.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:56 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Since Christ has ransomed all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:6 we now see how it is that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4).
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
The price has been paid for all to come to God through Jesus' blood sacrifice. It's God's desire that all come to repentance and be saved. But, it must be done of our own freewill. God can only work with us as we work with him. Each time God knocks on our heart, and we reject it, that knock grows fainter. If we reject Him enough, He will eventually shut us out. We become the walking dead, reserved for eternal judgement.

Since you believe "all" means "all", then you will have to concede that "all" liars are going to the lake of fire.

Rev. 21
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As you can see, only those who overcome will be sons and daughters of God.
Dear SC,
Thanks for your reply.
Why do you think that I believe all liars won't be going to the lake of fire? You must think I don't believe that by what you wrote. Maybe if you read what I wrote to Campbell concerning the lake of fire you would not have wasted your time writing to me about the lake of fire?

Also, you speak of free will stuff and all manner of other things. These all detract from 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Jesus Christ did not reveal to the apostle Paul that "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . if they just do what I require of them."

What is the reason given as to why it is that "God will have all humans to be saved? "For . . . Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL" and those liars who go into the lake of fire have been ransomed. Therefore all those liars must be freed from that death and into God's salvation.

Doesn't that just thrill your heart?
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:25 AM
 
5,430 posts, read 4,668,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What is the reason given as to why it is that "God will have all humans to be saved? "For . . . Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL" and those liars who go into the lake of fire have been ransomed. Therefore all those liars must be freed from that death and into God's salvation.
Jesus said that if an eye, a hand or a foot causes one to sin, it is better to amputate such an offending member; that would go for a lying tongue too. In the following scriptures, the worm refers to the soul. The soul lives forever, and hell is a fire that shall never be quenched for those who go there.

Mark 9
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:42 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
There is no assumption on my part. The Scriptures are very clear. Look at every Old Testament verse where "ransom" is used and you will see that every animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. .
Quote:
sciota replied: Could you provide us these specific verses to analyze?
Do your own homework. Get a concordance and look up the verses.


Quote:
Eusebius wrote: It is obvious that Paul is looking beyond John's Revelation.
Quote:
sciota replied: When death is destroyed, in 1 Cor 15, it is after Christ has handed over the kingdom to God, thus concludes the "milennium". This is consistent with the close of Revelation 20, after Death and Hades are destroyed. So we must conclude that Revelation 21 is post "milenium", in the New Heavens and Earth.
Eusebius' reply:
LOL! No sciota, Christ is still reigning on the new earth. He is still on the throne on the new earth. The throne is still in Revelation 21:3,5; 22:1,3

Quote:
Quote:
Eusebius wrote: I do believe people will go to the lake of fire during the new earth age or "ever". They will go there just before the millennium "ever" is ending and for the duration of the new earth "ever" and thus they will be there for "ever" and "ever."
Quote:
sciota replied: Yet the LOF exists in the New Heavens and Earth, after Death is destroyed, and after the milennium.
Quote:
The death that is still on the new earth is the second death. The only death that is no more is for the inhabitants of the new city Jerusalem. The lake of fire which is the second death is for the duration of the new earth. The only death Paul could write about being abolished would be the 2nd death because it is the only death left after all sovereignty, authority and power is done away and Christ quits reigning.



Quote:
Eusebius wrote: We must not conclude that "for ever and ever" means "eternity." If one "ever" in "for ever" is eternity, then how can there be another "ever" after it if eternity never ends? The word behind "ever" is "aion" or "eon." The Bible says all the eons end therefore there is no eternal eon. Therefore "for ever and ever" can't possibly mean "for eternity."
Quote:
sciota replied: Like any novice scholar can see, just because a word is rooted with another word such as aionios-aion, doesn't imply that that is the direct and ONLY definition of the term. Context continously defines it.
I really appreciate your cheap shots at those you don't agree with like calling me a "novice scholar." I have come to expect that from you.
All the eons end. The Bible says so. But the original post is not about the duration of the eons. Obviously they can't be eternal because there can't be eternal torment because all mankind have been ransomed. And this novice scholar therefore trumps all your scholars who have doctorates. So there! God uses the idiots like me to confound the wise.


Quote:
Quote:
Eusebius wrote: Also, the lake of fire is called "death."
Quote:
sciota replied: No...the process of verb action of Death and Hades thrown in the lake of fire is called the second death.
This is actually called a metonymy of the adjunct. It is where something stands for something else. In this instance "death and hades" stand for all held by them. The lake of fire is called "the second death." But this is not what the OP is about. It is about "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all."

Quote:
Quote:
Eusebius wrote: If you look at 1 corinthians 15:22-28 you will see that that death is going to be done away and all will be subjected to Christ and God will be All in all.
Quote:
sciota replied: True, but in the New Heavens and Earth death is destroyed so therefore Revelation sees past Paul Corinthian letter.
Not really. Look at Revelation 20:7 and see what is ending then look at when the lake of fire begins. The lake of fire takes place on the new earth and therefore death is still on the new earth. But this takes us away from the OP of God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ ransomed all mankind.


Quote:
Eusebius wrote: Now you can believe that due to Christ ransoming all mankind and therefore all mankind must be freed that God will have all mankind to be saved.
Quote:
sciota replied: Now you can believe that Revelation 20 is post milennium, post death is destroyed, and is the where God is all in all, and there is a city, where death is destroyed, but outside those city gates are those who don't believe in Christ, and suffer the second death, where in all said above are in the age that never ends Dan 7, Zech 14, Rev 22, Eph, Isa 45, Eph 3, and there is still sin, sorcery, whoremongering, idolatry, and those people who refuse Christ are "thrown into the lake of fire" which is the second death.
Nope, not correct. The lake of fire is still on the new earth and so death is still on the new earth. I see you are very confused in what you wrote above. First you say death is destroyed and God is all in all but then you say those outside the city gates suffer the second death. So death obviously is not destroyed yet.
Remember, on the new earth that as long as there are kings (and there are) and as long as Christ is still reigning (and He is) and as long as there are sovereignties, authorities and power (and there is) then death is not abolished for all mankind and therefore God cannot be All in all in John's revelation.

Now can we get back to the main point of the orignal post rather than these rabbit trails?

God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind.

One who is ransomed MUST be freed.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:47 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Jesus said that if an eye, a hand or a foot causes one to sin, it is better to amputate such an offending member; that would go for a lying tongue too. In the following scriptures, the worm refers to the soul. The soul lives forever, and hell is a fire that shall never be quenched for those who go there.

Mark 9
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
scgraham, do you think Paul didn't know Mark 9? Do you think Jesus forgot about Mark 9? Do you think I don't know about Mark 9?

Obviously that will occur in its own time. It can't be used to contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6. The same Jesus that told us Mark 9 also told us 1 Timothy 2:4-6. So it must be that 1 Timothy 2:4-6 comes after Mark 9 in God's time line.

What is it about ransom that you don't understand? Will you ever do a study on it through the whole bible? If you did you would see that any animal or human ransomed must be freed.

Since Jesus Christ ransomed all mankind all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.

Also, please note your "hell" in Mark 9:45 is Gehenna and that Gehenna is only used during the 1000 years.
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:15 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,681,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear Campbell, I think you are getting Jesus and God mixed up in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It is God that will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind.

There is no assumption on my part. The Scriptures are very clear. Look at every Old Testament verse where "ransom" is used and you will see that every animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. Therefore we must conclude that all mankind must be freed into God's Salvation because they all have been ransomed.

Now let's look at the Revelation passage you brought up because I sure would not want to be accused of "fully ignoring the Scriptures."

It is obvious that Paul is looking beyond John's Revelation. I do believe people will go to the lake of fire during the new earth age or "ever". They will go there just before the millennium "ever" is ending and for the duration of the new earth "ever" and thus they will be there for "ever" and "ever."
We must not conclude that "for ever and ever" means "eternity." If one "ever" in "for ever" is eternity, then how can there be another "ever" after it if eternity never ends? The word behind "ever" is "aion" or "eon." The Bible says all the eons end therefore there is no eternal eon. Therefore "for ever and ever" can't possibly mean "for eternity."

Also, the lake of fire is called "death." If you look at 1 corinthians 15:22-28 you will see that that death is going to be done away and all will be subjected to Christ and God will be All in all. Notice in Revelation Christ is still reigning and kings, and there is still sovereignty, authority and power and death going on. Paul sees beyond Revelation. To prove this go to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and notice Christ quits reigning 1 Cor.15:25, all sovereignty, authority and power done away 1 Cor.15:25 and death being abolished 15:26.

Now you can believe that due to Christ ransoming all mankind and therefore all mankind must be freed that God will have all mankind to be saved.

Isn't that wonderful?




How could I get Jesus and God mixed up? Jesus is God. And if everyone receives salvation, then John was lying to us in Revelation when he told us their torment was forever and ever. And if you don't believe for ever and ever is for eternity, then you can make the Scriptures say anything your heart desires. Physical death will be done away with, spiritual death will not. And that is why Jesus tells us in Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, (INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE) prepared for the devil and his angels.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. Eternal- Having infinite duration: EVERLASTING - continued without intermission: Perpetual, ect.

Play with the words if you will, but ETERNAL, means ETERNAL.
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,999,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Since Christ has ransomed all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:6 we now see how it is that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4).

No amount of sophistry can disprove this.

If you study through the whole Bible on the word "ransom" you will clearly see that every human or animal ransomed had to be freed. There is not one case in the whole bible that, once the ransom was made the human or animal could refuse to be freed.

Since all mankind have been ransomed, they cannot unransom themselves. They must be freed into God's salvation.

Christians who do not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 try to get your attention on God's will or whatever else. They will tell you anything they can to get you to not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6. But one thing they cannot do is disprove the ransom and what must come from that act of Christ for all mankind.

All mankind must be freed into God's salvation due to being ransomed by Christ.
Amen
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:36 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
How could I get Jesus and God mixed up? Jesus is God. And if everyone receives salvation, then John was lying to us in Revelation when he told us their torment was forever and ever. And if you don't believe for ever and ever is for eternity, then you can make the Scriptures say anything your heart desires. Physical death will be done away with, spiritual death will not.
Dear Campbell34,
LOL, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts even if I don't agree with them.

I know this may shock you but I really don't want the Scriptures say anything my heart desires. I want to believe what they say in a properly translated Bible.

"for ever and ever" really means "for an ever and an ever" which means "for an eon and an eon" if taken that way. Literally it is "for the eons of the eons" according to the Greek. "Aion" is in the plural in both places as in "eons of the eons". So literally the King James should have translated it "for the evers of the evers." No ever is eternal. Because an "ever" is an "aion." And the Bible says all the aion's end.

Obviously, you have to invent a phrase in order to not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 such as "spiritual death." The Bible never uses such an idea so why say it?


Quote:
You wrote:
And that is why Jesus tells us in Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, (INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE) prepared for the devil and his angels.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. Eternal- Having infinite duration: EVERLASTING - continued without intermission: Perpetual, ect.

Play with the words if you will, but ETERNAL, means ETERNAL.
I didn't know Webster's Dictionary was the bible or inspired. I guess I learn something new every day. So I guess that proves everything! LOL!

Campbell, The word "everlasting" in Matthew 25:41 is aionion in the Greek and is just an adjective telling us of that which pertains to the eon.
Now I will agree with you that "ETERNAL means ETERNAL." No doubt about it. But aionion does not mean ETERNAL. Play with the words if you will, but AIONION means "pertaining to the eon(s).

Now getting back to 1 Timothy 2:4-6: What is the reason God gives for willing that all mankind is to be saved? It is found here "for, Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." The bible is quite clear that all those who enter the "everlasting" fire must be freed from that and enter into God's salvation. Therefore the everlasting fire can only be lasting for an ever.

Campbell, don't you think it is improper to use a scripture to contradict another scripture?

Don't you think it is much better to see how all the scriptures work together? I believe all the scriptures.
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