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Old 05-10-2010, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Do you have any real life example of anyone actually "saved"? Do you know of anyone in the history ever "saved"?
I have been saved from the idea that many people will be tormented for eternity. I used to believe in eternal torment, but now I see the error of my ways.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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God desires all men to be saved.

Only an impotent god would not get what he wants. Our God, however, has specifically expressed that His will cannot and will not be denied.

Sovereignty Scriptures
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I didn't ask you to look up ransom themes. And even if I did some of those verses were not even related to ransom.

After God ransomed Israel from Egypt they were all freed from bondage to slavery. Every Israelite ransomed was freed.

(Exo 13:13) Yet every male opening up a donkey shall you ransom with a flockling, and should you not ransom it then you will break its neck. Yet every firstborn of a human among your sons shall you ransom.

(Exo 13:15) When it came to be that Pharaoh was obstinate to dismiss us, then Yahweh killed every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of human unto the firstborn of beast. Therefore I am sacrificing to Yahweh all the males opening up the womb; yet I am ransoming every firstborn of my sons.

(Num 18:15) Every male opening up the womb of all flesh which they may bring near to Yahweh of human and of beast shall be yours. Only you shall ransom, yea ransom the firstborn of humans, and the firstborn of an unclean beast shall you ransom.

(Num 18:16) As for his ransom, from a month old up shall you take ransom by your appraisal with five silver shekels by the shekel of the holy place. It is twenty gerahs.

(Num 18:17) Only the firstborn of kine or the firstborn of sheep or the firstborn of goats you shall not ransom. They are holy. Their blood you shall sprinkle against the altar, and their fat you shall cause to fume as a fire offering for a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

What are these "types" pointing to? Christ. Note, especially, the last sentence of verse 15 above bolded.

(Exo 21:8) If she is displeasing in the eyes of her lord, who has appointed her for himself, then he will let her be ransomed. To a foreign people he shall not rule to sell her because of his treachery with her.

Once she is ransomed she must be freed from her lord.

(Exo 21:30) If a sheltering ransom is imposed on him then he will give as a ransom for his soul according to all which is set on him.

(Exo 30:12) When you take up the sum of the sons of Israel by their mustered ones then each man will give a sheltering ransom for his soul to Yahweh while one is mustering them, so that no stroke may come among them when mustering them.

(Exo 30:16) You will take the sheltering ransom silver from the sons of Israel and give it to the service of the tent of appointment that it become for the sons of Israel a memorial before Yahweh to shelter your souls.

(Exo 34:20) Yet the male opening up of a donkey you shall ransom with a flockling, and if you should not ransom it then you will break its neck. Every firstborn of your sons you shall ransom. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed.

(Lev 19:20) In case a man who lies with a woman has an emission of semen when she is a bondmaid designated for another man, yet has not been ransomed, yea ransomed nor freedom given to her, a distinction shall there be:they shall not be put to death since she was not freed.

(Lev 27:27) Yet if it is among the unclean beasts, then he will ransom it by your appraisal and add to it a fifth of its value. Should it not be redeemed, then it will be sold by your appraisal.

(Lev 27:29) Every doomed one which is doomed of humanity shall not be ransomed; he shall be put to death, yea death.

(Num 3:46) And as the ransoms of the two hundred seventy-three, the superfluity, those over the number of the Levites, from the firstborn of the sons of Israe.

(Num 3:48) And you will give the silver to Aaron and to his sons, the ransoms of the superfluity among them.

(Num 3:49) So Moses took the silver of the ransoms from the superfluity, those over the ones ransomed by the Levites.

(Num 3:51) And Moses gave the silver of the ransoms to Aaron and to his sons at the bidding of Yahweh, just as Yahweh had instructed Moses.



(Num 35:31) Nor shall you take a sheltering ransom for the soul of the murderer, who stands condemned to die; for he shall be put to death, yea death.

(Num 35:32) And no sheltering ransom shall you take for one who had fled to his city of asylum only to return to dwell in the land before the death of the great priest.

(Deu 7:8) But it was because of the love of Yahweh for you and because of His keeping the oath that He had sworn to your fathers that Yahweh brought you forth with a steadfast hand and ransomed you from the house of servants, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(Deu 9:26) then I prayed to Yahweh and said:My Lord Yahweh, do not bring ruin on Your people and Your allotment, whom You ransomed by Your greatness, whom You brought forth from Egypt by Your steadfast hand.

(Deu 13:5) Then that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he spoke of defection from Yahweh your Elohim (the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt and the One ransoming you from the house of servants) so as to induce you from the way in which Yahweh your Elohim has instructed you to walk. Hence eradicate the evil from among you.

(Deu 15:15) Remember that you had become a servant in the country of Egypt, and Yahweh your Elohim ransomed you. Therefore I am instructing you to obey this word today.

(Deu 21:8) Make a propitiatory shelter for Your people, Israel, whom You have ransomed, Yahweh, and let not guilt for the blood of the innocent remain among Your people, Israel. Thus a propitiatory shelter for them will be made concerning this bloodshed.

(Deu 24:18) Remember that you had become a servant in Egypt, and Yahweh your Elohim ransomed you from there; therefore I am instructing you to obey this word.

(1Sa 12:3) `Lo, here [am] I; testify against me, over-against Yahweh, and over-against His anointed; whose ox have I taken, and whose ass have I taken, and whom have I oppressed; whom have I bruised, and of whose hand have I taken a ransom, and hide mine eyes with it? --and I restore to you..

(1Ch 17:21) `And who [is] as Your people Israel, one nation in the earth whom Elohim has gone to ransom to Him for a people, to make for You a name great and fearful, to cast out from the presence of Your people whom You have ransomed out of Egypt--nations?

(Neh 1:10) And they [are] Your servants, and Your people, whom You have ransomed by Your great power, and by Your strong hand.

(Job 5:20) In famine, He will ransom you from death, And in battle from the hands of the sword.

(Job 6:23) Or, Make my escape from the hand of the foe? Or, You shall ransom me from the hand of terrifiers?

(Job 33:24) And he is gracious to him and says, Do ransom him from descending to the pit; I have found a propitiatory shelter,

(Job 33:28) He ransomed my soul from passing into the pit, And my life is seeing the light.

(Psa 25:22) O Elohim, ransom Israel from all their distresses."

(Psa 26:11) As for me, I shall walk in my integrity. Ransom me, and be gracious to me."

(Psa 31:5) Into Your hand am I committing my spirit; You have ransomed me, O Yahweh, El of faithfulness."

(Psa 34:22) Yahweh is ransoming the soul of His servants, And all those taking refuge in Him shall not be found guilty."

(Psa 44:26) Do arise as our Help! And ransom us on account of Your benignity. Permanent Concerning Elations Anemones

(Psa 49:7) Surely it shall not ransom, yea ransom a man; Neither shall one pay to Elohim his sheltering ransom,

(Psa 49:8) For the ransom of his soul is too precious a price, And he shuns it for the eon"

(Psa 49:15) Surely Elohim, He shall ransom my soul from the hand of the unseen, For He shall take hold of me. Interlude"

(Psa 55:18) He ransoms my soul in peace from the attack against me, Though many have come to be against me."

(Psa 69:18) Come near to my soul and redeem it; On account of my enemies, ransom me."

(Psa 71:23) My lips shall be jubilant when I make melody to You, Even my soul, which You have ransomed."

(Psa 78:42) They did not remember His hand:The day when He ransomed them from the foe,

(Psa 111:9) He sent a ransom for His people; He enjoined His covenant on them for the eon; Holy and fear inspiring is His Name.

(Psa 130:7) Wait, Israel, for Yahweh, For with Yahweh is benignity, And with Him abundant ransom."

(Psa 130:8) And He Himself shall ransom Israel From all its depravities.

(Pro 13:8) His riches can be a ransoming shelter for a man's soul, While one who is destitute need not hearken to blackmail."

(Pro 21:18) The wicked man is a ransoming shelter for the righteous one, And the treacherous person is given instead of the upright."

(Isa 1:27) Zion with judgment shall be ransomed, and her restored, with righteousness."

(Isa 35:10) and the ransomed of Yahweh shall return, and they shall enter Zion with jubilation, and rejoicing eonian shall be on their head. Elation and rejoicing shall they overtake, and flee shall affliction and sighing."

(Isa 50:2) For what reason, when I came, was there no man? I called, and there was no answer? Is My hand too short to ransom? Or should no vigor be in Me to rescue? Behold! By My rebuke will I drain the sea; I will convert streams into a wilderness. Their fish will dry up, because there is no water, and they will die from thirst."

(Isa 51:11) And the ransomed of Yahweh shall return, and they come to Zion with jubilation, and rejoicing eonian is on their head. Elation and rejoicing shall overtake them, and affliction shall flee, and grief and sighing."

(Jer 15:21) And I have delivered you from the hand of evil doers, And I have ransomed you From the hand of the terrible!"

(Jer 31:11) For Yahweh has ransomed Jacob, And redeemed him from a hand stronger than he."

(Hos 7:13) Woe to them! for they wander from Me. Devastation to them! for they transgress against Me. When I am ransoming them, then they speak lies against Me."

(Hos 13:14) From the hand of the unseen will I ransom them; from death will I redeem them. Where is your plague, O Death? Where is your sting, O Unseen? Regret shall be concealed from My eyes."

(Mic 6:4) For I brought you up from the land of Egypt, and from the house of servants I ransomed you. And I am sending before you Moses, Aaron and Miriam."

(Zec 10:8) I shall hiss for them and convene them, for I ransom them, and they increase just as they have increased."

(Mat 20:28) even as the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve, and to give His soul a ransom for many."

(Mar 10:45) For even the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve, and to give His soul a ransom for many."

(1Ti 2:6) Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),

(1Pe 1:18) being aware that not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, were you ransomed from your vain behavior, handed down by tradition from the fathers,

The case is quite clear, all mankind have been ransomed by Christ, therefore God will have all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
I don't see how any of this is tied into your theology. These are types and shadows of Christ, spoken from and about His people and for those who have faith in Him. No one denies that He ransomed all mankind, but IT IS CLEAR THAT FAITH MUST BE PROFESSED IN ORDER TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF THE BLESSINGS OF ABRAHAM. Why can't you address Romans 10:9? Why? Because you cannot, and will not, because it destroys everything you preach.

Mankind is ransomed. Mankind must have faith in Christ for the propitation to be made effective. These are sound scriptural themes. And you deny them. UR is a false doctrine.
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't see how any of this is tied into your theology. These are types and shadows of Christ, spoken from and about His people and for those who have faith in Him. No one denies that He ransomed all mankind, but IT IS CLEAR THAT FAITH MUST BE PROFESSED IN ORDER TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF THE BLESSINGS OF ABRAHAM. Why can't you address Romans 10:9? Why? Because you cannot, and will not, because it destroys everything you preach.

Mankind is ransomed. Mankind must have faith in Christ for the propitation to be made effective. These are sound scriptural themes. And you deny them. UR is a false doctrine.
Sorry but that is not how ransom works in the Bible.

1 Timothy 2:4-6 does not say that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind as long as all mankind chooses to believe they were ransomed."

Show me one Scripture from all those I posted on ransom that an animal or human is given a choice to be freed AFTER they are ransomed. Just one will do.
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Sorry but that is not how ransom works in the Bible.

1 Timothy 2:4-6 does not say that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind as long as all mankind chooses to believe they were ransomed."
Again, 1 Tim 2:4-6 does not imply that God is going to save all mankind.
This has been addressed before, and you are wrong.

Quote:
Show me one Scripture from all those I posted on ransom that an animal or human is given a choice to be freed AFTER they are ransomed.
To what purpose? You proved yourself wrong by eisegetically imposing this whole idea onto the text. The scriptures, better yet, the Gospel and the entire New testament proves you wrong. It must take faith FOR THAT RANSOM TO BE MADE EFFECTIVE. That is the message of the gospel. The whole purpose of it entirely. To tell man, that he has been freed, and he must have faith in that sacrifice, TO BE MADE OF ANY EFFECT.
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:19 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,497,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Sorry but that is not how ransom works in the Bible.

1 Timothy 2:4-6 does not say that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind as long as all mankind chooses to believe they were ransomed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again, 1 Tim 2:4-6 does not imply that God is going to save all mankind.
This has been addressed before, and you are wrong.
Not really. I am right. Because Christ ransomed all mankind all mankind must be freed. Freed from what? Freed from sin and death. Do you think God will have them to be damned because Christ ransomed them?

Quote:
Eusebius wrote: Show me one Scripture from all those I posted on ransom that an animal or human is given a choice to be freed AFTER they are ransomed"
Quote:
sciota replied: To what purpose? You proved yourself wrong by eisegetically imposing this whole idea onto the text. The scriptures, better yet, the Gospel and the entire New testament proves you wrong. It must take faith FOR THAT RANSOM TO BE MADE EFFECTIVE. That is the message of the gospel. The whole purpose of it entirely. To tell man, that he has been freed, and he must have faith in that sacrifice, TO BE MADE OF ANY EFFECT.
No, the proof is there. One who is ransomed MUST be freed. I didn't make up the rules, God did. I must believe God. Or are you now going to say God was wrong too?
FOR THAT RANSOM TO BE MADE EFFECTIVE God has to free them into His salvation!

Part of the good new gospel is this:
Rom 8:21 "that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

And why must everyone in creation be freed? Surely this is not talking about trees and weeds. They must be freed from slavery because they were RANSOMED. Whether they have to believe it or not is beside the point.
When we liberated Kuwait from Sadam did the people of Kuwait have to believe they were liberated to be liberated? We paid a heavy price to free them.

Suppose a young boy is in a box in the ground with just an hour left of oxygen. He's been kidnapped. His rich uncle paid his ransom and so the police go to where he's been buried. Do the police say: "Your uncle paid your ransom but you have to believe. If you don't believe we can't free you. Well, what do you say?" Since they don't hear anything it is their duty (according to sciotamicks theology) to abandon the young boy even though the ransom has been paid. Is that how it works, sciota?

I asked you to "Show me one Scripture from all those I posted on ransom that an animal or human is given a choice to be freed AFTER they are ransomed" and you replied: "To what purpose?" And I must reply: For the purpose of proving to yourself you are patently wrong.

Last edited by Eusebius; 05-10-2010 at 03:32 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not really. I am right. Because Christ ransomed all mankind all mankind must be freed. Freed from what? Freed from sin and death. Do you think God will have them to be damned because Christ ransomed them?
Then I turn you to 1 Cor 15 and Revelation 21, where those in the New Jerusalem are free from sin and death. Your theology is not consistent with the scripture. Secondly, did you ever answer when this other new earth is etc?

Quote:
No, the proof is there. One who is ransomed MUST be freed. I didn't make up the rules, God did. I must believe God. Or are you now going to say God was wrong too?
Are you going to say God was wrong in Romans 10:9?
Answer it! Deal with this verse!

Quote:
Part of the good new gospel is this:
Rom 8:21 "that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Usurped again.

Quote:
And why must everyone in creation be freed? Surely this is not talking about trees and weeds. They must be freed from slavery because they were RANSOMED. Whether they have to believe it or not is beside the point.
And I point you to Romans 10:9 again, among others, but we will keep hammering this in until you deal with it.

Quote:
Suppose a young boy is in a box in the ground with just an hour left of oxygen. He's been kidnapped. His rich uncle paid his ransom and so the police go to where he's been buried. Do the police say: "Your uncle paid your ransom but you have to believe. If you don't believe we can't free you. Well, what do you say?" Since they don't hear anything it is their duty (according to sciotamicks theology) to abandon the young boy even though the ransom has been paid. Is that how it works, sciota?
Has nothing to do with God or theology of the scripture. So save me your extra Biblical reasonings and philosophy.
Stick to the Bible for confirmation.

Quote:
I asked you to "Show me one Scripture from all those I posted on ransom that an animal or human is given a choice to be freed AFTER they are ransomed" and you replied: "To what purpose?" And I must reply: For the purpose of proving to yourself you are patently wrong.
Because you failed once again between physical manifestations and spiritual realities in that all thiose texts pointed to Christ and have nothing to do with your inconsistent theology. All those text pointed to Israel, chosen people, saints, and people who had FAITH!

Show me a scripture in the OT where the heathen are redeemed for no faith in God. Also show me in the New Testament where it shows that one doesn't need to profess their faith in God, and abstain form the truth to be saved from death.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:43 PM
 
433 posts, read 516,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I have been saved from the idea that many people will be tormented for eternity. I used to believe in eternal torment, but now I see the error of my ways.
He got it right. He denounced such nonsense faith, then of course he is a free man again (he wasn't born with those nonsense before Sunday schools, now he's free again.) -- free of religious coercion.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,225,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't see how any of this is tied into your theology. These are types and shadows of Christ, spoken from and about His people and for those who have faith in Him. No one denies that He ransomed all mankind, but IT IS CLEAR THAT FAITH MUST BE PROFESSED IN ORDER TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF THE BLESSINGS OF ABRAHAM. Why can't you address Romans 10:9? Why? Because you cannot, and will not, because it destroys everything you preach.

Mankind is ransomed. Mankind must have faith in Christ for the propitation to be made effective. These are sound scriptural themes. And you deny them. UR is a false doctrine.


Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Phl 2:11
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



There you go ... Everyone will confess Jesus is lord, and everyone will be saved.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-10-2010 at 06:20 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



There you go ... Everyone will confess Jesus is lord, and everyone will be saved.
Just like Jesus said to Thomas, who had to SEE to believe, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!"

(We haven't seen Christ. We just have to believe what people have been telling us for 2000 years)

Those with the faith or Abraham are the ELECT! They will be used for a special purpose. ESPECIALLY saved!
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