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Old 05-13-2010, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,340,109 times
Reputation: 462

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The above is exactly what I am talking about. It is this type of post from hortysir that shows this person has not done a study on the word "ransom." If the poster did he would not have written what he did.

How so? In the whole Bible, once a ransom is made you cannot deny it. No person or animal is given a choice to make AFTER the ransom is made. You cannot unransom yourself. You must be freed.

Notice the last line of his post? He must think the person spewn out somehow unransomed themselves by being lukewarm. But this is just not the case. How do I know? Because I know eventually such a person will enter into God's full salvation of freedom from sin and death.
How do I know this? God tells us that "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." Therefore, based upon all mankind being ransomed God will save all mankind. And that includes the lukewarm ones.
I'm saying that God has put forward the ransom.
It is our free will to decide whether to accept it, or not.

You say we don't have a choice AFTER the ransom is made. I can agree with that. That's because it is our choice comes BEFORE we receive it.

I can't agree that all mankind will be saved.
Behavior has no consequences? Choice has no bearing?
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:05 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,463,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
I'm saying that God has put forward the ransom.
It is our free will to decide whether to accept it, or not.

You say we don't have a choice AFTER the ransom is made. I can agree with that. That's because it is our choice comes BEFORE we receive it.

I can't agree that all mankind will be saved.
Behavior has no consequences? Choice has no bearing?
You say: "It is our choice comes before we receive it"? I'm not sure I understand your thought by your construction of that sentence.

Do you mean "It is our choice [which] comes before we receive the ransom"?

Of course behaviour has consequences. In the future when people stand before the great white throne they all will be judged according to their acts.

But getting back to choice before we receive it, I would have to say that choosing and receiving have absolutely nothing to do with the ransom in our case 2000 years after the ransom was made.

In the Old Testament there are cases when one can refuse to be ransomed prior to a ransom being made. In which case they would stay with their slave owner. But once a ransom is made they must be freed.

Please tell me how you could have told God you didn't want to be ransomed? You were ransomed before you were ever born?
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,340,109 times
Reputation: 462
Cool Wonderful discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You say: "It is our choice comes before we receive it"? I'm not sure I understand your thought by your construction of that sentence.

Do you mean "It is our choice [which] comes before we receive the ransom"?

Of course behaviour has consequences. In the future when people stand before the great white throne they all will be judged according to their acts.

But getting back to choice before we receive it, I would have to say that choosing and receiving have absolutely nothing to do with the ransom in our case 2000 years after the ransom was made.

In the Old Testament there are cases when one can refuse to be ransomed prior to a ransom being made. In which case they would stay with their slave owner. But once a ransom is made they must be freed.

Please tell me how you could have told God you didn't want to be ransomed? You were ransomed before you were ever born?
Trying to watch a movie and type doesn't go well together. Sorry.
Just remove "it is".

I see our ransom as, instead of a duffel bag left at a bus stop, being Christ on the cross.
Just like until the duffel bag is picked up, the kidnappers don't release the hostage, until we receive Him from that cross our salvation isn't given to us.
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Trying to watch a movie and type doesn't go well together. Sorry.
Just remove "it is".

I see our ransom as, instead of a duffel bag left at a bus stop, being Christ on the cross.
Just like until the duffel bag is picked up, the kidnappers don't release the hostage, until we receive Him from that cross our salvation isn't given to us.
LOL.. That is a good analogy for choice!

I think of it as Christ paying our bill to the bill collector and we don't have anything to do with it... it's done. You can try to keep paying it yourself or you can realize you don't owe anything.

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Old 05-14-2010, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,340,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL.. That is a good analogy for choice!

I think of it as Christ paying our bill to the bill collector and we don't have anything to do with it... it's done. You can try to keep paying it yourself or you can realize you don't owe anything.

But that's the key, isn't it?
It's not automatic, like the OP suggests.
We have to accept it
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,577,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
But that's the key, isn't it?
It's not automatic, like the OP suggests.
We have to accept it
That's what preaching is supposed to be for - to let the masses know they don't owe anything even though it seems they should (ie: "the good news").

Whether they know it or not though - they don't.

So - the present knowledge is not automatic, yet the fact that it is done is automatic (AKA universal).

As in Adam all die - so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As one mans sin brought death upon all - so one man's righteousness brings life upon all. Ultimately.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
But that's the key, isn't it?
It's not automatic, like the OP suggests.
We have to accept it
Yet ultimately the bill was paid.. so even if you don't accept it, the bill collector doesn't care either way.. the bill is paid.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,577,665 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet ultimately the bill was paid.. so even if you don't accept it, the bill collector doesn't care either way.. the bill is paid.
This is so cool because then the statement "Go and tell the good news to every creature" actually makes sense.

He who believes not is damned (ie: condemned to a life of sub-abundance not KNOWING what is made available through Christ).

Yet the "Glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people" ultimately is fulfilled (through UR).
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
This is so cool because then the statement "Go and tell the good news to every creature" actually makes sense.

He who believes not is damned (ie: condemned to a life of sub-abundance not KNOWING what is made available through Christ).

Yet the "Glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people" ultimately is fulfilled (through UR).
Exactly...
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,340,109 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet ultimately the bill was paid.. so even if you don't accept it, the bill collector doesn't care either way.. the bill is paid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
This is so cool because then the statement "Go and tell the good news to every creature" actually makes sense.

He who believes not is damned (ie: condemned to a life of sub-abundance not KNOWING what is made available through Christ).

Yet the "Glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people" ultimately is fulfilled (through UR).
**Hugs**
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