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Old 05-14-2010, 06:09 AM
 
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katjonjj, firstborn888, hortysir, Thanks for adding to this wonderful topic and doing so in a really great spirit (attitude) of love.

hortysir, just a question, when a donkey is ransomed in the old testament like here:

Exo 13:13 Yet every male opening up a donkey shall you ransom with a flockling,
and should you not ransom it then you will break its neck.
Yet every firstborn of a human among your sons shall you ransom.

does the donkey have to make a decision if it accepts the ransom? How would they be able to know? We aren't talking about Mr. Ed the talking horse here.

And the little firstborn baby, what about it? How does it make a choice to want to be ransomed? And once the ransom is made, how does it accept or reject that ransom?
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:34 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,485,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Trying to watch a movie and type doesn't go well together. Sorry.
Just remove "it is".

I see our ransom as, instead of a duffel bag left at a bus stop, being Christ on the cross.
Just like until the duffel bag is picked up, the kidnappers don't release the hostage, until we receive Him from that cross our salvation isn't given to us.

Again, hortysir, you are not required to pick up the duffle bag. You just have to believe the diffle bag was given for your freedom.

You are mixing apples with aardvarks. We are talking about ransom here, not someone giving you a gift you have to open or receive.

Getting back to the Bible verse I showed you, how is that even remotely related to a donkey having to pick up a duffle bag? Or a firstborn baby? how is it supposed to pick up the duffle bag? They can't. It does not relate at all to the ransom.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:56 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,699,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear Campbell34,
LOL, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts even if I don't agree with them.

I know this may shock you but I really don't want the Scriptures say anything my heart desires. I want to believe what they say in a properly translated Bible.

"for ever and ever" really means "for an ever and an ever" which means "for an eon and an eon" if taken that way. Literally it is "for the eons of the eons" according to the Greek. "Aion" is in the plural in both places as in "eons of the eons". So literally the King James should have translated it "for the evers of the evers." No ever is eternal. Because an "ever" is an "aion." And the Bible says all the aion's end.

Obviously, you have to invent a phrase in order to not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 such as "spiritual death." The Bible never uses such an idea so why say it?




I didn't know Webster's Dictionary was the bible or inspired. I guess I learn something new every day. So I guess that proves everything! LOL!

Campbell, The word "everlasting" in Matthew 25:41 is aionion in the Greek and is just an adjective telling us of that which pertains to the eon.
Now I will agree with you that "ETERNAL means ETERNAL." No doubt about it. But aionion does not mean ETERNAL. Play with the words if you will, but AIONION means "pertaining to the eon(s).

Now getting back to 1 Timothy 2:4-6: What is the reason God gives for willing that all mankind is to be saved? It is found here "for, Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." The bible is quite clear that all those who enter the "everlasting" fire must be freed from that and enter into God's salvation. Therefore the everlasting fire can only be lasting for an ever.

Campbell, don't you think it is improper to use a scripture to contradict another scripture?

Don't you think it is much better to see how all the scriptures work together? I believe all the scriptures.




The word "aionion" needs to be considered in the context it is used. To suggest that it cannot be used for an "ETERNAL" condition. Then one can assume that eternal life is not really eternal either.

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believers has eternal (aionion) life.

So then, if you believe (aionion) is but a temporary condition. Do you also assume that all the promises that Christ made to us, are but temporary as well?

And what I believe is improper is to suggest that God is saying something when He clearly is not. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 does not have God saying (ALL WILL BE SAVED). It does say that it is God's (DESIRE) that all people be saved and (COME) to the knowledge of the truth.

It was also God's desire that men would turn from their evil ways so He would not have to destroy the world with a flood. Yet often what God desires is not fulfilled. It was God's desire that the Children of Israel follow Him. Yet that desire was not fulfilled either.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:34 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,485,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The word "aionion" needs to be considered in the context it is used. To suggest that it cannot be used for an "ETERNAL" condition. Then one can assume that eternal life is not really eternal either.

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believers has eternal (aionion) life.

So then, if you believe (aionion) is but a temporary condition. Do you also assume that all the promises that Christ made to us, are but temporary as well?
What is so bad about God granting to the believer to be having life pertaining to the oncome non-eternal eons/ages? You act as if they are not eternal that we are getting short changed by God. To be chosen to live through the entire 1000 year age and the new earth age is quite a grand thing. It is like winning the greatest lottery in the universe. Those ages/eons will end. But our life will not end because we will have put on immortality.

Quote:
And what I believe is improper is to suggest that God is saying something when He clearly is not. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 does not have God saying (ALL WILL BE SAVED). It does say that it is God's (DESIRE) that all people be saved and (COME) to the knowledge of the truth.

It was also God's desire that men would turn from their evil ways so He would not have to destroy the world with a flood. Yet often what God desires is not fulfilled. It was God's desire that the Children of Israel follow Him. Yet that desire was not fulfilled either.
I think you misunderstand "ransom." If you will please go through every occurrence of "ransom" which I provided here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/14109589-post37.html
you will please note that every animal or human ransomed must be freed.

Fast forward to the New Testament when Christ ransomed all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:6. So why is it that "God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth" in 1 Timothy 2:4? It is due to them being ransomed. They must be freed into God's salvation and knowledge of the truth.

The bible doesn't really say that God desired all mankind of the pre-flood era to turn from their evil says so as not to destroy them with a flood. It just says He was sorry He made man due to their evil ways and instructed Noah to build an ark.

I am sorry but you cannot use God's desire that Israel follow Him with His desire to save all mankind. As to God's desire in dealing with Israel, it was actually His hidden intention that they fail miserably to prove to them that they cannot do the law and that they needed a Saviour (Romans 5:20, Gal.3:24).

Isa 46:10-11 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from
aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be
confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'" (11) Calling from the sunrise, a
bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak!
Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

Please re-do a study on the ransom and come to an understanding that you will hopefully see that all ransomed must be freed.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:53 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,699,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What is so bad about God granting to the believer to be having life pertaining to the oncome non-eternal eons/ages? You act as if they are not eternal that we are getting short changed by God. To be chosen to live through the entire 1000 year age and the new earth age is quite a grand thing. It is like winning the greatest lottery in the universe. Those ages/eons will end. But our life will not end because we will have put on immortality.



I think you misunderstand "ransom." If you will please go through every occurrence of "ransom" which I provided here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/14109589-post37.html
you will please note that every animal or human ransomed must be freed.

Fast forward to the New Testament when Christ ransomed all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:6. So why is it that "God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth" in 1 Timothy 2:4? It is due to them being ransomed. They must be freed into God's salvation and knowledge of the truth.

The bible doesn't really say that God desired all mankind of the pre-flood era to turn from their evil says so as not to destroy them with a flood. It just says He was sorry He made man due to their evil ways and instructed Noah to build an ark.

I am sorry but you cannot use God's desire that Israel follow Him with His desire to save all mankind. As to God's desire in dealing with Israel, it was actually His hidden intention that they fail miserably to prove to them that they cannot do the law and that they needed a Saviour (Romans 5:20, Gal.3:24).

Isa 46:10-11 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from
aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be
confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'" (11) Calling from the sunrise, a
bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak!
Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

Please re-do a study on the ransom and come to an understanding that you will hopefully see that all ransomed must be freed.




Jesus Christ desires to ransom all mankind this is true. Yet there is, (A REQUIREMENT). As stated in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, THAT WHOEVER (BELIEVES IN HIM) SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall (CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED).

John 3:36 Whoever (BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE); whoever does not obey the Son (SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD REMAINS ON HIM.)

Do you understand that it requires a (BELIEF IN HIM) to receive life eternal? Eternal salvation is not a blank check. And clearly Scripture tells us that if we (DO NOT OBEY THE SON) we shall not see life, (AND THE WRATH OF GOD WILL REMAIN ON US.)

Your belief that everyone is saved is a belief that is encouraged by Satan himself. Such a belief allows people to believe whatever they desire. They can live anykind of life they wish. And why not, after all, even if they murder, kill, or rape. We are all saved anyway according to you. We will all be in heaven with Adolf Hitler, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, ect. Your beliefs are truly a departure from the Scriptures.

John 3:36 Tells us, (THAT IF YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST YOU WILL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD WILL REMAIN ON YOU.)

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,778,430 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Jesus Christ desires to ransom all mankind this is true. Yet there is, (A REQUIREMENT). As stated in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, THAT WHOEVER (BELIEVES IN HIM) SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall (CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED).

John 3:36 Whoever (BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE); whoever does not obey the Son (SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD REMAINS ON HIM.)

Do you understand that it requires a (BELIEF IN HIM) to receive life eternal? Eternal salvation is not a blank check. And clearly Scripture tells us that if we (DO NOT OBEY THE SON) we shall not see life, (AND THE WRATH OF GOD WILL REMAIN ON US.)
Campbell....every universalist here will tell you the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. No one has said otherwise. You might be thinking of the Unitarian Universalists, who believe that all roads lead to salvation. You have to understand that salvation and reconciliation are two very different things. There will be punishment for the unbeliever, just not what you believe to be eternal hell.

Quote:
Your belief that everyone is saved is a belief that is encouraged by Satan himself. Such a belief allows people to believe whatever they desire. They can live anykind of life they wish. And why not, after all, even if they murder, kill, or rape. We are all saved anyway according to you. We will all be in heaven with Adolf Hitler, John Wayne Gacy, Stalin, ect. Your beliefs are truly a departure from the Scriptures.
That's not true....I said the same things before myself. Universalism DOES NOT allow people to believe whatever they desire or does it give people freedom to sin at will without consequence. There are definite consequences to unbelief but again, not an eternal fiery hell as you believe. Not ALL are saved "anyway"......it is up to God to decide one's fate and how long they will be punished, or "refined" in the fire. Those who are saved will see life, those who are not saved will see the wrath of God, that much is true according to the scriptures. But His wrath is not your wrath.....the scripture you quoted does not say nor does it mean eternal hellfire.

Quote:
John 3:36 Tells us, (THAT IF YOU DO NOT OBEY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST YOU WILL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD WILL REMAIN ON YOU.)

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?
Yes!!
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:23 AM
 
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[quote=Ilene Wright;14198219]
Quote:

Campbell....every universalist here will tell you the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. No one has said otherwise. You might be thinking of the Unitarian Universalists, who believe that all roads lead to salvation. You have to understand that salvation and reconciliation are two very different things. There will be punishment for the unbeliever, just not what you believe to be eternal hell.

That's not true....I said the same things before myself. Universalism DOES NOT allow people to believe whatever they desire or does it give people freedom to sin at will without consequence. There are definite consequences to unbelief but again, not an eternal fiery hell as you believe. Not ALL are saved "anyway"......it is up to God to decide one's fate and how long they will be punished, or "refined" in the fire. Those who are saved will see life, those who are not saved will see the wrath of God, that much is true according to the scriptures. But His wrath is not your wrath.....the scripture you quoted does not say nor does it mean eternal hellfire.

Yes!!
1. So if you believe that, then do you also agree that the wrath of God (WILL REMAIN ON ALL NON BELIEVERS)? This is not my wrath, it is God's.

2. Or, do you believe (IT WILL NOT REMAIN ON NON BELIEVERS), and it will only be a temporary condition?
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:28 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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[quote=Campbell34;14198514]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

1. So if you believe that, then do you also agree that the wrath of God (WILL REMAIN ON ALL NON BELIEVERS)? This is not my wrath, it is God's.

2. Or, do you believe (IT WILL NOT REMAIN ON NON BELIEVERS), and it will only be a temporary condition?
The wrath of God WILL remain on unbelievers, but it doesn't say that this is an eternal condition, does it?
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:22 AM
 
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[quote=Ilene Wright;14198547]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post

The wrath of God WILL remain on unbelievers, but it doesn't say that this is an eternal condition, does it?



According to Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Once a man is judged, where does Scripture speak of the numerous other judgements that would be required to get everyone out of hell?

If these men do not know God, then and after the judgment this would be a eternal condition that would last forever.

In Luke 16 It speaks of the rich man in Hell. He said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, (BECAUSE I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE). Yet Abraham replied telling the rich man that there exist a great chasm between the rich man and Himself. And that chasm was fixed so that those who want to go from here to the rich man cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to Abraham.

There is nothing that would suggest this was a temporary condition.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:46 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,778,430 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post

According to Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Once a man is judged, where does Scripture speak of the numerous other judgements that would be required to get everyone out of hell?
Huh? Judgments to get everyone out of hell? There is but one judgment and at that time everyone will be handed down their sentence. The white throne judgment is for unbelievers who died without being saved and they will have to face a sentence, whether it's one day in God's consuming spiritual fire or 1000 years. It will be determined by actions and deeds, and when their time is up (similar to our own judicial system) they will be released into the kingdom. God will know exactly how long a person will need to be "refined" in the fire to be fit for the kingdom. It is my belief that there will be no rewards whatsoever for those who died in unbelief. They will simply be a part of the kingdom and serve God.

Quote:
If these men do not know God, then and after the judgment this would be a eternal condition that would last forever.
There's nothing in scripture that proves this to be an eternal condition. Due to mistranslations of words such as "hell" and "eternal", it cannot be and must not be assumed that the lake of fire is anything but symbolic for God's spiritual fire.

Quote:
In Luke 16 It speaks of the rich man in Hell. He said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, (BECAUSE I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE). Yet Abraham replied telling the rich man that there exist a great chasm between the rich man and Himself. And that chasm was fixed so that those who want to go from here to the rich man cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to Abraham.
Was he in hell or hades? It's not the same thing. Hell is broadly used to describe what fundamentalists call eternal torment, and that is just not the case when one studies the true meanings of hell, hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus and the lake of fire. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not prove eternal torment....the rich man was being refined in God's spiritual fire and nowhere does it say he would be there for all of eternity. I believe the chasm was bridged when Jesus died and went to Hades....He bridged the gap between us and God. He is the reason we can be reconciled.

Quote:
There is nothing that would suggest this was a temporary condition.
And there is nothing to suggest this was a permanent condition either. It's all in the interpretation and translations.
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