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Old 05-08-2010, 06:23 PM
 
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Since Christ has ransomed all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:6 we now see how it is that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4).

No amount of sophistry can disprove this.

If you study through the whole Bible on the word "ransom" you will clearly see that every human or animal ransomed had to be freed. There is not one case in the whole bible that, once the ransom was made the human or animal could refuse to be freed.

Since all mankind have been ransomed, they cannot unransom themselves. They must be freed into God's salvation.

Christians who do not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 try to get your attention on God's will or whatever else. They will tell you anything they can to get you to not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6. But one thing they cannot do is disprove the ransom and what must come from that act of Christ for all mankind.

All mankind must be freed into God's salvation due to being ransomed by Christ.
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Old 05-08-2010, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Roman 10:7 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Tim 2:2-5 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who desires (thelo) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Why did Paul strive so diligently and why was he willing to suffer reproach as he labored in the gospel? Paul knew that he had a message for all men....a message of hope, a message of good news, a message of reconciliation. He also knew that as this message went forth it would be gladly received by some. There would be those who would believe and be actually saved. Take note of the similar motivation expressed by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:10 above. Paul was willing to endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they might obtain the salvation that is found in Christ (not just so that they might have temporal and physical deliverance).

Paul knew that God was using his gospel preaching (as he proclaimed the good news of Christ and His death on the cross to all men) as a means by which God would bring the elect to faith in Christ. Without preaching there can be no faith (Rom. 10:14-17)....and without confession, there can be NO SALVATION (Rom. 10:9).

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Those who take this verse at face value cannot be in danger of teaching Universalism. If God were to actually save all men, then how would believers be saved in a special sense? The very fact that the verse says that there is a special sense in which believers are saved implies that there is a sense in which unbelievers are not saved. Unbelievers are not actually saved, even though God the Savior has desired their salvation and provided for it in the death of His Son. This is the message of the entire gospel and all of the epistles, including the Apocalypse of John.

More scriptural refutation of UR:

http://cwhisonant.gotdns.com/documents/docs/universalism.html
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Old 05-08-2010, 07:15 PM
 
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I did a word search of sciota's post above and not once did he use the word "ransom." Why? it is quite obvious. He knows if he deals with Christ ransoming all mankind he must come to the same conclusion Paul did in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 that God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Since all mankind have been ransomed all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.

Stick to the issue sciota and quit throwing out those red herrings. The issue is Christ ransoming all mankind and based upon that, all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.
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Old 05-08-2010, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I did a word search of sciota's post above and not once did he use the word "ransom." Why? it is quite obvious. He knows if he deals with Christ ransoming all mankind he must come to the same conclusion Paul did in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 that God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Since all mankind have been ransomed all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.

Stick to the issue sciota and quit throwing out those red herrings. The issue is Christ ransoming all mankind and based upon that, all mankind must be freed into God's salvation.
Eusebius, no one denies that His sacrifice was for all mankind.
What you miss is that all men are not saved. You need a little lesson on "Offering".
You fail miserably in addressing the prerequesite for that PROPITATION to be made effective, and that is confession. However, the "will" in 1 Tim 2:4-6 has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RANSOM! It is because of that ransom, that GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BECOME SAVED. He has provided the means of salvation to be made effective. When Paul says that God will have all men to be saved, he means now to show mercy to all the world, to them that were, as it was, shut out from the hope of salvation. We hear what Paul says in another place, that the heathen were without God, void of all promise, because they were not as of yet brought to the fellowship of the people of the Jews. (Eph 2:2). And this was a special privilege that God had given to the stock of Abraham, to choose it. Paul’s meaning is not that God will save every particular man, but he says that the promises which were given to one only people, are now stretched out through all the world. As he says in this same epistle of Ephesians, the wall [of partition] was broken down at the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. God had separated the people of the Jews form all nations; but when Jesus Christ appeared for the saving of the world, then took he away this diversity which was between the Jews and the Gentiles. All men have the access to salvation now.

You have been corrected again.
How long must this go on....aionios if it takes.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-08-2010 at 07:41 PM..
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Old 05-09-2010, 06:46 AM
 
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The Lords faith and hope that his works will be victorous...... See when we pray, we confess the Word that Jesus said and believe it to be rejecting doubts and unbelief...... Jesus prophets repeat a Word for Heaven telling people what to belief......... Heaven does not cofess what the world does a say ``well maybe some people can be saved and maybe others will not care and be lost maybe I don`t Know...``....... Heaven sayed that What It Must Happen end of story......In Matthew 8:5-13.... Is the greatest faith the Jesus said in the Word of God where a Roman centurian came to Jesus saying his servent was ill and he said..`` Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof , but speak the word only and my servant shall be healed... For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me and I say to this man Go and he goeth, and to another Come and he cometh and to my servant Do this and he doeth it``....... And Jesus heard this a said ..``Verily I say unto you I have not found so Great faith , no, not in Israel.......... Jesus said to the centurian..`` Go thy way and as thou hast believed so be it done unto thee``.......... So when we pray ``Father I command this to happen by the Word that you said I Jesus name ``.. and your prayers will be received....Just like Ransomed means All Mankind must be Freed by the faith from Heaven........
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:09 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eusebius, no one denies that His sacrifice was for all mankind.
What you miss is that all men are not saved. You need a little lesson on "Offering".
You fail miserably in addressing the prerequesite for that PROPITATION to be made effective, and that is confession. However, the "will" in 1 Tim 2:4-6 has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RANSOM! It is because of that ransom, that GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BECOME SAVED.

sciotamicks, what you have stated above can clearly be proven to be wrong.

First of all, this is not about His sacrifice made for all mankind. This is about all mankind being ransomed. "Ransom" is the word God used in this verse to bring out an important point. Had God wanted to use "sacrifice" He would have used "thusia." Instead He used "lutron." So let's stick to God's topic and not throw out red herrings.

The will of God is directly tied to Christ ransoming all mankind. This can easily be shown:

"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." See that little word "for"? That means "because" or "the reason being."

This is from Strong's on the word "for":
"G1063
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles. Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries"

Here is an example:
Mat 1:20 "Joseph, son of David, you may not be afraid to accept Miriam, your wife, for that which is being generated in her is of holy spirit.

See that word "for"? What is the reason why Joseph should not be afraid? For or because or the reason being is: that which is being generated in her is of holy spirit.

Mat 1:21 Now she shall be bringing forth a Son, and you shall be calling His name Jesus, for He shall be saving His people from their sins."

The name "Jesus" means "Saviour." Why will they call His name Jesus? For, or because, or the reason being He shall be saving His people from their sins.

I can bring forth hundreds and hundreds of scriptures to prove this.

God wills that all mankind be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. Therefore the will of God is directly tied to Christ ransoming all mankind.



Quote:
He has provided the means of salvation to be made effective.
That is not Paul's point. Remember, sciota, the point is that all mankind have been ransomed. This is not talking about Jesus providing a means of salvation.

Quote:
When Paul says that God will have all men to be saved, he means now to show mercy to all the world, to them that were, as it was, shut out from the hope of salvation. We hear what Paul says in another place, that the heathen were without God, void of all promise, because they were not as of yet brought to the fellowship of the people of the Jews. (Eph 2:2).
That is incorrect. But I will give you some points for at least trying. When you say "he means" and give your explanation you are replacing the divine explanation with your own faulty one. The divine explanation is that "God will have all mankind to be saved FOR Christ ransomed all." Any human or animal that is ransomed must be freed. This has nothing to do with God showing mercy to the world and then saving some heathen so they can have fellowship with the Jews. Please stick with God's reason why He will have all mankind to be saved.

Quote:
And this was a special privilege that God had given to the stock of Abraham, to choose it. Paulís meaning is not that God will save every particular man, but he says that the promises which were given to one only people, are now stretched out through all the world. As he says in this same epistle of Ephesians, the wall [of partition] was broken down at the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. God had separated the people of the Jews form all nations; but when Jesus Christ appeared for the saving of the world, then took he away this diversity which was between the Jews and the Gentiles. All men have the access to salvation now.
That is not what Paul was trying to bring out in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Please, sciota, stick with the reason. Stick with the "for" of 1 Timothy 2:4-6. If you do you must come to the same conclusion as I have reached and Paul has reached.

Paul was informing all the believers what God is going to do with all mankind. He was informing them that all mankind must be freed into God's salvation eventually because all mankind have been ransomed. You are mixing apples with oranges.
I doubt you even really believe that all believers must be saved due to Christ ransoming them.

Now sciota, repeat after me:

"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . FOR . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" 1 Timothy 2:4-6. That is the divine explanation as to why God will have it so.

Ransom = Freed
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:10 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,680,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Since Christ has ransomed all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:6 we now see how it is that "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4).

No amount of sophistry can disprove this.

If you study through the whole Bible on the word "ransom" you will clearly see that every human or animal ransomed had to be freed. There is not one case in the whole bible that, once the ransom was made the human or animal could refuse to be freed.

Since all mankind have been ransomed, they cannot unransom themselves. They must be freed into God's salvation.

Christians who do not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 try to get your attention on God's will or whatever else. They will tell you anything they can to get you to not believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6. But one thing they cannot do is disprove the ransom and what must come from that act of Christ for all mankind.

All mankind must be freed into God's salvation due to being ransomed by Christ.




Well of course you can only believe all men will be saved if you fully ignore the Scriptures. Even 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us God (WANTS) all men to be saved. Yet what God wants, and what man decide are two different things. And what does Jesus Christ Himself tell us?

Matthew 7:13,14

13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life. (AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.)

Clearly Jesus Christ Himself tells us, that only a few will be ransomed, and only a few will enter the strait gate.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:39 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well of course you can only believe all men will be saved if you fully ignore the Scriptures. Even 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us God (WANTS) all men to be saved. Yet what God wants, and what man decide are two different things. And what does Jesus Christ Himself tell us?

Matthew 7:13,14

13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life. (AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.)

Clearly Jesus Christ Himself tells us, that only a few will be ransomed, and only a few will enter the strait gate.
But Campbell34 I don't "fully ignore the Scriptures" but accept all the Scriptures and still believe that God will save all mankind for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Jesus did not tell us only a few would be ransomed by saying what He did in Matthew 7:13,14. He said few were finding the path that led to life and I believe He was referring to the strick narrow way of the law.

Yes, many were going into destruction. But we must not read into that word "destruction" the idea of eternal damnation. Jesus was seeking to save the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel. The Greek word used for "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroyed." The prerequisite to being saved by Jesus was to be destroyed.

The risen Jesus Christ told Paul that all were ransomed in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. You say "Jesus Christ Himself tells us that only a few will be ransomed." Who am I to believe? You or Jesus?

Since all mankind have been ransomed the majority that did not find the correct gate will eventually be freed into God's salvation because 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us they will.
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:03 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,680,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But Campbell34 I don't "fully ignore the Scriptures" but accept all the Scriptures and still believe that God will save all mankind for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Jesus did not tell us only a few would be ransomed by saying what He did in Matthew 7:13,14. He said few were finding the path that led to life and I believe He was referring to the strick narrow way of the law.

Yes, many were going into destruction. But we must not read into that word "destruction" the idea of eternal damnation. Jesus was seeking to save the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel. The Greek word used for "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroyed." The prerequisite to being saved by Jesus was to be destroyed.

The risen Jesus Christ told Paul that all were ransomed in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. You say "Jesus Christ Himself tells us that only a few will be ransomed." Who am I to believe? You or Jesus?

Since all mankind have been ransomed the majority that did not find the correct gate will eventually be freed into God's salvation because 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us they will.



Clearly 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us that Christ (WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED). It does not tell us all men (WOULD BE SAVED). That is an asumption on your part. And it requires you to draw an unfounded conclusion. Revelation 14:11 speaks of the fate of the wicked, and states. And the smoke of their torment rises (FOR EVER AND EVER). There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. Clearly Scripture tells you there is no salvation for these people, nor will they be eventually freed. It states there torment will be, (FOR EVER AND EVER).

Last edited by Campbell34; 05-09-2010 at 08:12 AM..
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Clearly 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us that Christ (WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED). It does not tell us all men (WOULD BE SAVED). That is an asumption on your part. And it requires you to draw an unfounded conclusion. Revelation 14:11 speaks of the fate of the wicked, and states. And the smoke of their torment rises (FOR EVER AND EVER). There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. Clearly Scripture tells you there is no salvation for these people, nor will they be eventually freed. It states there torment will be, (FOR EVER AND EVER).
Dear Campbell, I think you are getting Jesus and God mixed up in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It is God that will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind.

There is no assumption on my part. The Scriptures are very clear. Look at every Old Testament verse where "ransom" is used and you will see that every animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. Therefore we must conclude that all mankind must be freed into God's Salvation because they all have been ransomed.

Now let's look at the Revelation passage you brought up because I sure would not want to be accused of "fully ignoring the Scriptures."

It is obvious that Paul is looking beyond John's Revelation. I do believe people will go to the lake of fire during the new earth age or "ever". They will go there just before the millennium "ever" is ending and for the duration of the new earth "ever" and thus they will be there for "ever" and "ever."
We must not conclude that "for ever and ever" means "eternity." If one "ever" in "for ever" is eternity, then how can there be another "ever" after it if eternity never ends? The word behind "ever" is "aion" or "eon." The Bible says all the eons end therefore there is no eternal eon. Therefore "for ever and ever" can't possibly mean "for eternity."

Also, the lake of fire is called "death." If you look at 1 corinthians 15:22-28 you will see that that death is going to be done away and all will be subjected to Christ and God will be All in all. Notice in Revelation Christ is still reigning and kings, and there is still sovereignty, authority and power and death going on. Paul sees beyond Revelation. To prove this go to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and notice Christ quits reigning 1 Cor.15:25, all sovereignty, authority and power done away 1 Cor.15:25 and death being abolished 15:26.

Now you can believe that due to Christ ransoming all mankind and therefore all mankind must be freed that God will have all mankind to be saved.

Isn't that wonderful?
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