U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Celebrating Memorial Day!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2010, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386

Advertisements

Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.

They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those who believe in eternal torment say those who believe in the salvation of all change the meaning of a word within one sentence, example the above scripture, they say that when aionios is applied to torment the universalist says it only means a limited time period, but when applied to eternal life the universalist say aionios means endless life or a life without end, thus playing with words in order to suite their doctrine.

And I agree, to change the meaning of a word within one sentence is playing with words, but this same playing with words concerning aionios is not just done by those who believe in the salvation of all. Those who believe in eternal torment also must change the meaning of aionios in one sentence.

Example The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at Hab. from the old testament.

Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.

Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence when applied to the hills and means something else in the second part of the sentence when applied to God ways. Thus doing the same thing the universalist does with Mt.25:46


But the neither party need change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.



Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.



Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say thatís blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.

Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.

The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.

The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.

Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.

Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?

What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.

Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?

These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.

If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.

Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.

Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

God Bless
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-09-2010, 01:35 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
Reputation: 385
Thank you pneuma,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,627,358 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.

They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those who believe in eternal torment say those who believe in the salvation of all change the meaning of a word within one sentence, example the above scripture, they say that when aionios is applied to torment the universalist says it only means a limited time period, but when applied to eternal life the universalist say aionios means endless life or a life without end, thus playing with words in order to suite their doctrine.

And I agree, to change the meaning of a word within one sentence is playing with words, but this same playing with words concerning aionios is not just done by those who believe in the salvation of all. Those who believe in eternal torment also must change the meaning of aionios in one sentence.

Example The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at Hab. from the old testament.

Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.

Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence when applied to the hills and means something else in the second part of the sentence when applied to God ways. Thus doing the same thing the universalist does with Mt.25:46


But the neither party need change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.



Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.



Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.

Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.

The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.

The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.

Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.

Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?

What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.

Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?

These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.

If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.

Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.

Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

God Bless
Pneuma, hey brother. This is a part of universalism that has got it wrong regarding aionios. Aionios doesn't mean a limited duration because if it did that would mean it has DEFINED the end point of a duration. But even the scriptures you showed means that it cannot mean such. You talked of the mountains and the God's ways. God's Ways do not end and they had no beginning so they are not a limited duration.

Here is how you need to understanding Aionios (PAY ATTENTION UNIVERSALISTS TO THIS PART):

Aionios refers to a continuing point - NOT an end point. AIONIOS means something will endure THROUGH the end of the current age and INTO the next.

So to say something is aionios means it is something that will CONTINUE BEYOND the end of this current AGE.

It is that simple. Go back and re-read those things from that perspective.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 06:25 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Pneuma, hey brother. This is a part of universalism that has got it wrong regarding aionios. Aionios doesn't mean a limited duration because if it did that would mean it has DEFINED the end point of a duration. But even the scriptures you showed means that it cannot mean such. You talked of the mountains and the God's ways. God's Ways do not end and they had no beginning so they are not a limited duration.

Here is how you need to understanding Aionios (PAY ATTENTION UNIVERSALISTS TO THIS PART):

Aionios refers to a continuing point - NOT an end point. AIONIOS means something will endure THROUGH the end of the current age and INTO the next.

So to say something is aionios means it is something that will CONTINUE BEYOND the end of this current AGE.

It is that simple. Go back and re-read those things from that perspective.
Dear trettep,
No one likes to be told they are wrong. However, the wise will increase in wisdom and knowledge and Proverbs says if you correct a wise man he will kiss you. Well, you can hold off on your kisses 'cause I ain't that type LOL!

But let's look at this adjective called "Aionios."
Actually, let's first look at these adjectives and their nounal forms:

America = noun
American = adjective
Bush was the American president. His presidency pertained to America. It was not "America-lasting" or "greater than America." It did not go beyond the bounds of America.

Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The realm of the angel pertains to Heaven. It is not "heaven-lasting" nor is its realm greater than that of Heaven.

Aion, Eon = noun
Aionios, Eonian = adjective
God is said to be the aionios or eonian God. His Godness or placership or subjectorship pertains to the eons. He is over the eons directing them and subjecting all mankind to the goal He has for each eon. God is not the "eon-lasting" God. Once the eons end He will no longer be the eonian God for there will no longer be eons to subject mankind to. Instead He will be God All in all.

Quote:
So to say something is aionios means it is something that will CONTINUE BEYOND the end of this current AGE.
That is not the meaning of aionios. Just because aionios life continues beyond this current eon does not mean that is the definition of aionios.
The definition has already been set as it pertains to adjectives and their nounal forms due to the laws of grammar of languages.
All aionios means is that it is defining something which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be according to its contextual setting.

O.K. now how about that kiss? Just on the cheek.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Pneuma, hey brother. This is a part of universalism that has got it wrong regarding aionios. Aionios doesn't mean a limited duration because if it did that would mean it has DEFINED the end point of a duration. But even the scriptures you showed means that it cannot mean such. You talked of the mountains and the God's ways. God's Ways do not end and they had no beginning so they are not a limited duration.

Here is how you need to understanding Aionios (PAY ATTENTION UNIVERSALISTS TO THIS PART):

Aionios refers to a continuing point - NOT an end point. AIONIOS means something will endure THROUGH the end of the current age and INTO the next.

So to say something is aionios means it is something that will CONTINUE BEYOND the end of this current AGE.

It is that simple. Go back and re-read those things from that perspective.
Hi Paul, it has been awhile.

Gods ways to end brother, the way God dealt with people under the old covenant came to an end when He made the new covenant. So yes His ways do come to an end in each aion, but that does not mean He does not have ways in the new

its all in how you look at it brother.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Thank you pneuma,
your welcome
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear trettep,
No one likes to be told they are wrong. However, the wise will increase in wisdom and knowledge and Proverbs says if you correct a wise man he will kiss you. Well, you can hold off on your kisses 'cause I ain't that type LOL!

But let's look at this adjective called "Aionios."
Actually, let's first look at these adjectives and their nounal forms:

America = noun
American = adjective
Bush was the American president. His presidency pertained to America. It was not "America-lasting" or "greater than America." It did not go beyond the bounds of America.

Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The realm of the angel pertains to Heaven. It is not "heaven-lasting" nor is its realm greater than that of Heaven.

Aion, Eon = noun
Aionios, Eonian = adjective
God is said to be the aionios or eonian God. His Godness or placership or subjectorship pertains to the eons. He is over the eons directing them and subjecting all mankind to the goal He has for each eon. God is not the "eon-lasting" God. Once the eons end He will no longer be the eonian God for there will no longer be eons to subject mankind to. Instead He will be God All in all.



That is not the meaning of aionios. Just because aionios life continues beyond this current eon does not mean that is the definition of aionios.
The definition has already been set as it pertains to adjectives and their nounal forms due to the laws of grammar of languages.
All aionios means is that it is defining something which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be according to its contextual setting.

O.K. now how about that kiss? Just on the cheek.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 08:25 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
Reputation: 682
This is a good topic of discussion, even though you can see there are differences of opinion even amongst UR believers on what "aionios life" means. But I think it is important to realize that there is more beyond "aionios life", whether it is pertaining to a few specific ages or referring to enduring through an age into the next (which IMHO are almost the same thing, we are simply nitpicking over which specific eons it is referring too).

Keep in mind scripture defines what aionios life is:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal [aionios] life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Aionios life is simply knowing God and Christ, right now.

In any case the traditional (eternal torment) view will always have a problem understanding UR with verses like this if they think "aionios life" means "unending life":

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [aionios: eonian] life.

The problem the traditional view sees is that "perishing" is the opposite of endless life, and if you perish, you won't get this so-called endless life (even though "hell" would be a kind of endless life). They feel that because many people do indeed perish in this life without believing Christ, therefore those who perished won't be able to live at all with Christ.

But that is not what this scripture is saying at all. It is saying, if you believe in Christ, you will receive aionios life. If you don't you will perish. You won't be resurrected to inherit the Kingdom reign (You will be a subject of the Kingdom though - see Matt 8:12). You won't know God (right now). Once the period of eons to which the aionios life is referring has finished, there is still something beyond that. The consummation, where the rest are made alive. This is referred to in 1 Cor 15:22-28, ultimately leading to God being all in all (everyone). All are made alive, but each in their own order. So those who do not believe now will not be made alive first, but later (in their own order). From the Concordant Literal translation:

1 Cor 15
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


At the consummation all will be made alive. The exact timing of all this is debatable. During the Kingdom reign, are the subjects of the Kingdom (those case outside) alive, but spiritually dead, or just plain dead DEAD (unconscious sleep)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 08:30 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
legoman, righto chap!

There is eonian life and there is immortality. Both are not the same (I know you know that). Immortality allows us to live through the duration of the final ages or eons AND BEYOND!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 08:54 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
legoman, righto chap!

There is eonian life and there is immortality. Both are not the same (I know you know that). Immortality allows us to live through the duration of the final ages or eons AND BEYOND!
Exactly, I should have said that too! Aionios life is not the same as immortality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top