U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-10-2010, 02:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Lego I am only going to say this (as I have been down this road before on this board with Bob) I do not beleive God planned for man to sin (after the fashion you presented), I beleive God gave man freewill to make the choice between life and death and man chose death, but God did have a plan in place to restore man to Him before He ever created man.

The problem I see whenever this topic is brought up is that people mix Gods foreknowledge up with Gods predestination thinking that because God foreknew man would sin God must have predestinated man to sin when He (God) created him (man). IMO God foreknew man would sin when He gave man the choice of life and death and therefore made a way for man to return to Him, this by no means means that God predestinated man to sin it just means God knew man would sin when given the choice.
The question then arises, how could mankind know Good if they never ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND evil ... ? And how could mankind have become like God if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the tree of knowledge to begin with? And why does God say that he created evil, and even the wicked for the day of evil?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-10-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,684,856 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Lego I am only going to say this (as I have been down this road before on this board with Bob) I do not beleive God planned for man to sin (after the fashion you presented), I beleive God gave man freewill to make the choice between life and death and man chose death, but God did have a plan in place to restore man to Him before He ever created man.

The problem I see whenever this topic is brought up is that people mix Gods foreknowledge up with Gods predestination thinking that because God foreknew man would sin God must have predestinated man to sin when He (God) created him (man). IMO God foreknew man would sin when He gave man the choice of life and death and therefore made a way for man to return to Him, this by no means means that God predestinated man to sin it just means God knew man would sin when given the choice.
I completely agree with you. God does not desire for anyone to sin; therefore, I don't see why he would purposely plan for Adam and Eve to sin. That doesn't make any sense since we know His character. Sin is everything He is not so it doesn't make sense that He would purposely plan that for us since we are made in His image. What you wrote makes complete sense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 02:55 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
You are correct. Had they lived free from sin, as we are today under grace, then all would have been well.
No disrespect intended, but what you say is completely bizarre and impossible.

Did God know what Adam and Eve would do when He let the serpent into the garden? Of course! It couldn't have happened any other way because God already knew what was going to happen.

Did God not intend for Satan to tempt Adam & Eve? If He did not, why would He let the serpent into the garden? Is it possible the serpent sneaked into the garden and God was unaware? No, of course not.

There was 0% chance that Adam & Eve would not eat of the forbidden fruit. Their fate was already sealed. They were destined to be sinners. Just like we are destined to be sinners.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:01 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892
Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So God puts it into the heart of the ten kings to give their power unto the beast, to fulfill his(Gods) will ... It is Gods will that these ten kings sin and give their power to the beast. This one scripture alone proves that God hardens the hearts of people and causes them to sin in order to fulfill his own will ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:04 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Lego I am only going to say this (as I have been down this road before on this board with Bob) I do not beleive God planned for man to sin (after the fashion you presented), I beleive God gave man freewill to make the choice between life and death and man chose death, but God did have a plan in place to restore man to Him before He ever created man.

The problem I see whenever this topic is brought up is that people mix Gods foreknowledge up with Gods predestination thinking that because God foreknew man would sin God must have predestinated man to sin when He (God) created him (man). IMO God foreknew man would sin when He gave man the choice of life and death and therefore made a way for man to return to Him, this by no means means that God predestinated man to sin it just means God knew man would sin when given the choice.
No problem, I think you will see answers in this thread - you may not agree with them, that is ok.

But I don't think there is effectively much difference between God's foreknowledge and God predestining something. For if God knows something will happen, it cannot happen any other way than how God knows it will happen. God knew how everything would happen before He created any of us. He did not have to respond to His own creation to adjust His plan for sin. Because God knew all this before Adam & Eve were ever created. If God knew it all before anyone was ever created, then that was God's intention.

For example, was it possible that Adam & Eve would not sin? No it was never possible, because God knew they would sin, and in fact if you examine the evidence objectively, God didn't do much to stop them from sinning. He let the serpent in the garden. He put the tree of knowledge in close proximity to Adam & Eve. He made the tree desirous and pleasing to the eyes.

God is all-powerful and all-knowing and predestines events. All this flys in the face of the idea that God never intended sin to happen...

Personally I think not understanding or accepting this is one of the stumbling blocks that keeps people believing in eternal torment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,684,856 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
No disrespect intended, but what you say is completely bizarre and impossible.

Did God know what Adam and Eve would do when He let the serpent into the garden? Of course! It couldn't have happened any other way because God already knew what was going to happen.

Did God not intend for Satan to tempt Adam & Eve? If He did not, why would He let the serpent into the garden? Is it possible the serpent sneaked into the garden and God was unaware? No, of course not.

There was 0% chance that Adam & Eve would not eat of the forbidden fruit. Their fate was already sealed. They were destined to be sinners. Just like we are destined to be sinners.
Once again you are doing what Pneuma said...Just because He has foreknowledge doesn't mean he predestined that to happen. I don't believe Adam and Eve's fate was sealed to eat the fruit. It was their choice. They didn't have to sin, but God knew they would, but that doesn't mean He predestined them to do that! It boils down to free will which IMO you don't believe in, correct?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:11 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Once again you are doing what Pneuma said...Just because He has foreknowledge doesn't mean he predestined that to happen. I don't believe Adam and Eve's fate was sealed to eat the fruit. It was their choice. They didn't have to sin, but God knew they would, but that doesn't mean He predestined them to do that! It boils down to free will which IMO you don't believe in, correct?
Read my post after that. God's foreknowledge is essentially predestination.

If God knows what you are going to do tomorrow (and He does), then your entire day tomorrow has been predestined according to what God knows you will do. You cannot do anything tomorrow other than what God already knows you will do. You are only "free" to do what God knows you will do.

Now consider that God knows what you would do tomorrow, and He has known that since before you ever existed - since before creation ever existed. And you think you have free will?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:12 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,734 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
IMO God foreknew man would sin when He gave man the choice of life and death and therefore made a way for man to return to Him, this by no means means that God predestinated man to sin it just means God knew man would sin when given the choice.
The thing that I don't understand about that, is that if God knew they would sin given the choice, and He gave them the choice, that's the same as making sure they would do it. Why would He even give them the choice if that was not His will? I never gave my kids the choice of having candy or vegetables for dinner because I knew which one they would choose, and I was not going to allow that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So God puts it into the heart of the ten kings to give their power unto the beast, to fulfill his(Gods) will ... It is Gods will that these ten kings sin and give their power to the beast. This one scripture alone proves that God hardens the hearts of people and causes them to sin in order to fulfill his own will ...
And, of course, we can't forget Revelation 5:13.

And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

What I hear coming out of that verse is:

Wow! Weren't we all a bunch of fools to actually think that we were in control and knew what we were doing! We (the whole universe, everything that was ever created) are so overwhelmed by the wisdom, power, light, and love of our Creator!!!

God is ALWAYS in control.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 03:16 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
The thing that I don't understand about that, is that if God knew they would sin given the choice, and He gave them the choice, that's the same as making sure they would do it. Why would He even give them the choice if that was not His will? I never gave my kids the choice of having candy or vegetables for dinner because I knew which one they would choose, and I was not going to allow that.
Exactly !!!

If God knew they would sin, given the option to sin, then does that make God an irresponsible father? Or does that mean God has a reason and a purpose for sin?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top