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Old 05-10-2010, 04:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
God creating evil, as the scriptures i have quoted say, is not the same as God being evil.

If God made people evil and then caused them to suffer for suffering sake then he would be evil. But God is kind to the wicked and unthankful. And his judgments are for the purpose of teaching the wicked righteousness.



Rom 9:14-24
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



This is the answer to your question ...



Selah ...

It is your answer but it doesn't change the premise. If God can hardeneth who he hardeneth then that only reinforces the case that God is righteous even to allow someone to be in torment endlessly.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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I Peter 1:12. Things that the angels would like to look into.

Ephesians 3:10 So that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Definitely a lesson being taught to the powers that be, and to us as well.

The only thing that will exist in the end is LOVE!

LOVE CONQUERS ALL!
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

If God made people evil and then caused them to suffer for suffering sake then he would be evil. But God is kind to the wicked and unthankful. And his judgments are for the purpose of teaching the wicked righteousness.

Do you believe God could have created us as beings already perfected without evil even being necessary in the first place?
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
It is your answer but it doesn't change the premise. If God can hardeneth who he hardeneth then that only reinforces the case that God is righteous even to allow someone to be in torment endlessly.

Its not my answer, it was Pauls answer ... Perhaps you disagree with Paul, that is another issue.

By the words of Christ, if God returned evil for evil, he would be evil. We are commanded by Christ not to return evil for evil, and to love our enemies. So God must do as he commands us to do if he is Good, if he does not do what he commands, he is evil(a hypocrite).

I don't know how you could argue against that, but i believe you may be simply confused on the issue. Or maybe i simply misunderstand you ...



God bless ...
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Do you believe God could have created us as beings already perfected without evil even being necessary in the first place?
He probably could have, but it wouldn't have served His purposes to do so. He wanted us to experience the journey, not just arrive at the destination.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Do you believe God could have created us as beings already perfected without evil even being necessary in the first place?
No ... Because it is necessary to experience good and evil in order for our individual personalities to be differentiated to begin with ... That is how individuation occurs.

Its the natural order of things, that in order to be individual persons, we must have individual experiences and learn from contrasts. That is the way mind works. Its is natural order, and is as necessary as air and water for actual existence. Without experiencing pain, and evil, there is no development of self.

Asking what if is not dealing with what is ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-10-2010 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
No ... Because it is necessary to experience good and evil in order for our individual personalities to be differentiated to begin with ... That is how individuation occurs.

Its the natural order of things, that in order to be individual persons, we must have individual experiences and learn from contrasts. That is the way mind works. Its is natural order, and is as necessary as air and water for actual existence. Without experiencing pain, and evil, there is no development of self.

Asking what if is not dealing with what is ...

And that is why God is not evil.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
He probably could have, but it wouldn't have served His purposes to do so. He wanted us to experience the journey, not just arrive at the destination.
Then his purposes are evil. If he could achieve the same result without humanity being subject to pain and suffering, there is no purpose that is good for going ahead and doing it.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
And that is why God is not evil.
Indeed ... Evil is a necessary part of the creative act. It doesnt have to exist for ever, but it needs must exist temporarily for the purpose of the development of actual mind.

And hence, understanding the role of death in fertility ... A flower that Grows out of poo ...

That is the greatest power of God, and man as well, to make something Good out of something bad. The power of the philosophers stone if you will ... Transmutation. Lead into Gold, mortal into immortal, order from chaos, being from non-being ... Etc.


Isa 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Then his purposes are evil.
That's interesting. And what qualifies you to judge the purposes of your creator?

Quote:
If he could achieve the same result without humanity being subject to pain and suffering, there is no purpose that is good for going ahead and doing it.
He wouldn't have achieved the same result. Being something and becoming something are not the same thing. Anybody who has ever overcome any kind of adversity or succeeded at something after having initially failed could tell you that.
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