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Old 05-10-2010, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That's interesting. And what qualifies you to judge the purposes of your creator?
I do not judge the creator, I judge what people think he does in the name of righteousness. It is not wrong to believe that we can understand what the creator can and cannot do.

God cannot lie, for instance. That is something he cannot do.

I can rightly judge your conclusion about God to have an evil implication. You can feel free to do the same of mine.





Quote:
He wouldn't have achieved the same result.
So you conclude that God would be unable to achieve the same result for us without subjecting us to pain and suffering?
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The question then arises, how could mankind know Good if they never ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND evil ... ? And how could mankind have become like God if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the tree of knowledge to begin with? And why does God say that he created evil, and even the wicked for the day of evil?

Iron it seems I just can’t walk away with what I posted as it seems to have left more question then answers. So I will answer a few of those questions you and others here brought up.

Your first question is thus

The question then arises, how could mankind know Good if they never ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND evil ... ?

Did Jesus know the difference between good and evil?
Did Jesus need to sin in order to know this difference?
Does this not show that sin is NOT a requirement in order to know good and evil?
For if sin is the requirement does that not then mean Jesus must also have sinned?

Your second question
And how could mankind have become like God if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the tree of knowledge to begin with?

One word bro/sis “obedience”

Your third question
And why does God say that he created evil, and even the wicked for the day of evil?

I don’t believe God created evil.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(ra'): I the LORD do all these things.

That scripture is a translation of the Hebrew made by men correct?
Bara/create in the Hebrew in its original sense means cut down or cut out
Here is my translation of that scripture

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Totally, changes the meaning of that scripture when you look at bara/create in its original sense does it not?

Pro 16:4
The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The word made in the Hebrew is paal and means work, therefore has nothing to do with creating.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Canada
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No problem, I think you will see answers in this thread - you may not agree with them, that is ok.

But I don't think there is effectively much difference between God's foreknowledge and God predestining something.

Lego there is a difference or the scriptures would not have used two different words and meaning for them.

For if God knows something will happen, it cannot happen any other way than how God knows it will happen. God knew how everything would happen before He created any of us.He did not have to respond to His own creation to adjust His plan for sin.

I wrote this a few years back bro/sis and it is very applicable here
The Potter and His Clay

Jeremiah 18:1-17
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter:

A funny thing about clay is that it has a memory of its own and always wants to return to its clay form. So when one is fashioning a vase the clay tries to fall back into its natural form. Thus being marred in the hands of the potter. It is NOT the potter who mars the clay in his hands, it is the clay trying to return to clay that mars itself. The potter wants to make a vase, the clay wants to return to its natural form.

So if we look at man who is formed from the dust of the earth and placed into the garden to be fashioned into Gods image and likeness, we can see the clay in the potters hands.
Now through mans own disobedience man marred himself in the potters hands and returned to the dust/clay from whence he was taken. Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now lets look at those same scriptures out of the Septuagint.

18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:

And we know that Adam fell by disobedience. Thus the potter did NOT mar the vessel
the vessel fell and marred itself.

so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Thus the potter takes up the same clay and makes a NEW vessel out of it.
We are a NEW creation in Christ Jesus.

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Thus proving that all vessels pass through the fire, for without the baking process the vessel will always retain it’s own will and turn to it’s old form.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? 15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them “I make peace, and create evil”.

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
Or how does God create evil?
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. “I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity”.

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.


Do we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Septuagint

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.


Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLYdifferent view then what the KJV seems to present.

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?

You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?



Because God knew all this before Adam & Eve were ever created. If God knew it all before anyone was ever created, then that was God's intention.
That is your understanding brother but not what the scriptures proclaim. When it comes to manGod says lets make man in our image and likeness. Lego sin has NOTHING to do with making man in Gods image and likeness. Man is only made in Gods image and likeness through Christ and as sin had no part in Christ why proclaim sin must be part of God process.

For example, was it possible that Adam & Eve would not sin?
Yes, for with every temptation God has provided a way for man not to give into the temptation. If I looked at it from your perspective the way God gave for man not to enter temptation become mute.

No it was never possible, because God knew they would sin, and in fact if you examine the evidence objectively, God didn't do much to stop them from sinning.
I don’t know what more God could have done to stop man from sinning then to give them a warning, if you eat you die.
He let the serpent in the garden. He put the tree of knowledge in close proximity to Adam & Eve. He made the tree desirous and pleasing to the eyes.
Yes and with every temptation He also provided a way for man to overcome that temptation.


God is all-powerful and all-knowing and predestines events. All this flys in the face of the idea that God never intended sin to happen...
Yes God is all knowing, all powerful and does indeed predestinate, but every scripture but one ( and that one is probably translated in error as it has no second witness anywhere in scripture) shows predestination is to LIFE and never to DEATH. Which puts the kibosh on God predestinating man to DEATH.

Personally I think not understanding or accepting this is one of the stumbling blocks that keeps people believing in eternal torment.
I don’t believe in eternal torment bro/sis and yet I agree more with my brothers and sister who do on this point then with my brothers and sister who believe in UR.

3 things to remember Lego,

sin is of the devil

tares are of the devil

and

a good tree CANNOT bring forth CORRUPT FRUIT.

Surely God is a good tree.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
The biblical wording can imply different things depending upon the nature of what it is being applied to.

We can say God created evil, but if evil is only a by product of creation, then that raises different implications.

For instance.

Lets say I beat you over the head with a 2x4 in order to teach you a lesson, but in truth, I could have (if I so chose) taught you the same lesson without having to have subjected you to such severe pain.

Under what circumstances could you accept that as good?


The issue is if the nature of the God we are supposed to find truth in is inherantly good.

The reasoning that "whatever God does is good" is not good enough because you can apply that phrase to excuse the most wretched of deeds.

God is not inherantly Good if he created evil and subjected us to it when he actually did not have to in the first place?
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Many points of view just offer dogma to overlook the contradiction to Gods character and many do not realize it.

When the UR person objects to the doctrine of Calvinism and says that Calvinism depicts a God that is such and such, they actually rely on the same set of dogmatic statements to excuse God desiring child rape for a good purpose.

Both demand that "God does what he does for a good purpose and since he does it, it is ok".
so true
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I completely agree with you. God does not desire for anyone to sin; therefore, I don't see why he would purposely plan for Adam and Eve to sin. That doesn't make any sense since we know His character. Sin is everything He is not so it doesn't make sense that He would purposely plan that for us since we are made in His image. What you wrote makes complete sense.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
So you conclude that God would be unable to achieve the same result for us without subjecting us to pain and suffering?
I do. I believe that there must be opposition in all things and that without being tried and tested, we could not conceivably gain the knowledge those experiences give us. I think there are some things mankind interprets as being sadistic on God's part which, if all the facts were known, really do have a purpose. When a mother takes a 6-month-old baby into the doctor for a vaccination, the baby can't even begin to comprehend why the same person she has grown to recognize as a source of love and comfort would suddenly turn on her and subject her to pain. God can see a much bigger picture than we can, and for us to assume that he is just hurting us without a reason is about as silly as thinking that a baby can understand her mother's reasons for doing everything she does. I should clarify, though, that I don't think God subjects us to all of the pain and suffering we experience. There are a lot of factors besides "God made it happen." One of these is the fact that He gave us free agency, and some people abuse that agency. When they do, other people are bound to suffer.

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-10-2010 at 06:33 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I completely agree with you. God does not desire for anyone to sin; therefore, I don't see why he would purposely plan for Adam and Eve to sin. That doesn't make any sense since we know His character. Sin is everything He is not so it doesn't make sense that He would purposely plan that for us since we are made in His image. What you wrote makes complete sense.
So you just think that allowing Satan to tempt Adam and Eve was just poor planning on His part? Why do you believe He even permitted Satan in the Garden of Eden in the first place?
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Iron it seems I just can’t walk away with what I posted as it seems to have left more question then answers. So I will answer a few of those questions you and others here brought up.

Your first question is thus

The question then arises, how could mankind know Good if they never ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND evil ... ?

Did Jesus know the difference between good and evil?
Did Jesus need to sin in order to know this difference?
Does this not show that sin is NOT a requirement in order to know good and evil?
For if sin is the requirement does that not then mean Jesus must also have sinned?
Thanks for your response ...

Concerning Christ, he created evil, so he did not have to sin to know evil, though he became the sin of the world as well, and he experienced sin vicariously before he became sin through the world around him.

So no, as Christ pre-existed the universe, and existed with the father before time was, he is the one human being who did not have to sin in order to know Good and evil. However, everyone else by necessity sins, and it is impossible for anyone(human) beside Christ to truly know Good and evil without themselves sinning.
Quote:
Your second question
And how could mankind have become like God if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the tree of knowledge to begin with?

One word bro/sis “obedience”
Its brother, i'm a guy ...

According to scripture, Adam and eve became as God when they ate the tree of knowledge. Not by being obedient, but after they had already disobeyed ...


Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


and again ...


Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ...


Quote:
Your third question
And why does God say that he created evil, and even the wicked for the day of evil?

I don’t believe God created evil.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(ra'): I the LORD do all these things.

That scripture is a translation of the Hebrew made by men correct?
Bara/create in the Hebrew in its original sense means cut down or cut out
Here is my translation of that scripture

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Totally, changes the meaning of that scripture when you look at bara/create in its original sense does it not?
Bara is the same word used in all these passages ...

Psa 51:10,Isa 4:5,Isa 45:7,Isa 57:19,Isa 65:17,Isa 65:18 ...

Now do the same and translate the word Bara as cut down in these passages and see what kind of sense that makes. None ...

For instance ...

Isa 65:17
For, behold, I cut down new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

or ...

Isa 65:18
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I cut down: for, behold, I cut down Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

and again ...

Psa 51:10
cut down in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


I realize that is certain contexts that it can be understood to mean Cut, but only when being used in the "piel" voice, however it is the "qal" voice being used in that scripture, as it is God that is the subject of the verb and not a man ...

Quote:
It is true that bara' means "slash," but only in the Hebrew Piel voice. (The Hebrew verbal system is based primarily on voices, or "modes" or "stems" as they are sometimes called.) In the Piel voice, the verb bara' can have a human subject, and means "cut down, slash." In the Qal voice, which is the foundational voice, it only has God as subject, and means "to do a wondrous work."

From STANLEY JAKI ON GENESIS ONE
Quote:
Pro 16:4
The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The word made in the Hebrew is paal and means work, therefore has nothing to do with creating.
Even if you want to translate paal as work, the scripture is still stating that the wicked for the day of evil is Gods work.

I appreciate that you choose not to beleive that God created evil, but in so many words you are saying that evil is outside the jurisdiction of God, and exists as a separate entity foreign to Gods creative act. That is called dualism, and is not what the original Hebrew religion, or event he modern Hebrew religion teaches. What you are saying is more akin to Zoroastrianism, and not Judaism.

Nevertheless, God bless friend ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-10-2010 at 07:16 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more. Do you believe God plans for people to murder, rape, rob, etc? He knows it happens, but does He plan for that to happen? You believe it's God's intention for people to disobey Him and wrong others? How can that be when he wants us to "love one another"? Either His intention is that He want us to sin or His intention for us is to live sinless lives.
I don't pretend to have all the answers here, and no I don't think God is planning rapes of little children. Yet rape and murder happens, and God doesn't stop it. Draw your own conclusions.

To be honest I'm not really sure on it all and it is a tough concept to understand. But as others have said, scripture does say God creates evil, God sends out evil, is there evil in a city and God has not done it... (Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6), etc. What are your views on those verses?

You ask about God's intention for people to disobey Him, yet that is exactly what Romans 11:32 says.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now you are quite right that God wants people to be obedient. So why does he bind men over to disobedience? What do you think these verses mean CantWait2Leave? Its not easy to understand this stuff, so feel free to disagree with me, but we are still left with the verses. I think God binds people to be disobedience so we will experience it and understand it, and maybe in some ways "get it out of our system", and so He can show mercy on us and make us obedient.

Maybe we can look at it using this analogy. A parent catches his young son smoking, so the father makes his son smoke a whole pack of cigarettes until the son throws up. Does the father want the son to smoke? No. Yet he makes his son smoke a whole bunch of cigarettes! Is that a contradiction? No, because he wants his son to be so sick of them that he will never do it again.

I think it is sort of like that with God and His creation, except He didn't even wait to "catch" us sinning first. He intended us to sin so we would see it in all its depravity, and ultimately get so sick of it we would never do it again.

I hope that made sense. God is showing us the bad so we can understand the good.



Quote:
Oh yeah and of course you have to bring up ET vs UR...sigh. Does every thread have to talk about this?
Sorry, its relevant to me - forget about it, it was more of an aside than anything.
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