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The question then arises, how could mankind know Good if they never ate of the tree of knowledge of GOODAND evil ... ? And how could mankind have become like God if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the tree of knowledge to begin with? And why does God say that he created evil, and even the wicked for the day of evil?
The biblical wording can imply different things depending upon the nature of what it is being applied to.
We can say God created evil, but if evil is only a by product of creation, then that raises different implications.
For instance.
Lets say I beat you over the head with a 2x4 in order to teach you a lesson, but in truth, I could have (if I so chose) taught you the same lesson without having to have subjected you to such severe pain.
Under what circumstances could you accept that as good?
The issue is if the nature of the God we are supposed to find truth in is inherantly good.
The reasoning that "whatever God does is good" is not good enough because you can apply that phrase to excuse the most wretched of deeds.
God is not inherantly Good if he created evil and subjected us to it when he actually did not have to in the first place?
No problem, I think you will see answers in this thread - you may not agree with them, that is ok.
But I don't think there is effectively much difference between God's foreknowledge and God predestining something. For if God knows something will happen, it cannot happen any other way than how God knows it will happen. God knew how everything would happen before He created any of us. He did not have to respond to His own creation to adjust His plan for sin. Because God knew all this before Adam & Eve were ever created. If God knew it all before anyone was ever created, then that was God's intention.
For example, was it possible that Adam & Eve would not sin? No it was never possible, because God knew they would sin, and in fact if you examine the evidence objectively, God didn't do much to stop them from sinning. He let the serpent in the garden. He put the tree of knowledge in close proximity to Adam & Eve. He made the tree desirous and pleasing to the eyes.
God is all-powerful and all-knowing and predestines events. All this flys in the face of the idea that God never intended sin to happen...
Personally I think not understanding or accepting this is one of the stumbling blocks that keeps people believing in eternal torment.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Do you believe God plans for people to murder, rape, rob, etc? He knows it happens, but does He plan for that to happen? You believe it's God's intention for people to disobey Him and wrong others? How can that be when he wants us to "love one another"? Either His intention is that He want us to sin or His intention for us is to live sinless lives.
Yes, I believe it was possible for them not to sin. He doesn't have to stop us from sinning. We can choose to sin or not to sin. He puts temptations in our lives (and Adam and Eve's), but you think His intention is to get us to sin? Really? That's sad.
Oh yeah and of course you have to bring up ET vs UR...sigh. Does every thread have to talk about this?
I couldn't disagree with you more. Do you believe God plans for people to murder, rape, rob, etc? He knows it happens, but does He plan for that to happen? You believe it's God's intention for people to disobey Him and wrong others? How can that be when he wants us to "love one another"? Either His intention is that He want us to sin or it's His intention for us is to live sinless lives.
Yes, I believe it was possible for them not to sin. He doesn't have to stop us from sinning. We can choose to sin or not to sin. He puts temptations in our lives (and Adam and Eve's), but you think His intention is to get us to sin? Really? That's sad.
Oh yeah and of course you have to bring up ET vs UR...sigh. Does every thread have to talk about this?
Many points of view just offer dogma to overlook the contradiction to Gods character and many do not realize it.
When the UR person objects to the doctrine of Calvinism and says that Calvinism depicts a God that is such and such, they actually rely on the same set of dogmatic statements to excuse God desiring child rape for a good purpose.
Both demand that "God does what he does for a good purpose and since he does it, it is ok".
Read my post after that. God's foreknowledge is essentially predestination.
If God knows what you are going to do tomorrow (and He does), then your entire day tomorrow has been predestined according to what God knows you will do. You cannot do anything tomorrow other than what God already knows you will do. You are only "free" to do what God knows you will do.
Now consider that God knows what you would do tomorrow, and He has known that since before you ever existed - since before creation ever existed. And you think you have free will?
I don't think foreknowledge is anything like predestination!
The biblical wording can imply different things depending upon the nature of what it is being applied to.
We can say God created evil, but if evil is only a by product of creation, then that raises different implications.
For instance.
Lets say I beat you over the head with a 2x4 in order to teach you a lesson, but in truth, I could have (if I so chose) taught you the same lesson without having to have subjected you to such severe pain.
Under what circumstances could you accept that as good?
The issue is if the nature of the God we are supposed to find truth in is inherantly good.
The reasoning that "whatever God does is good" is not good enough because you can apply that phrase to excuse the most wretched of deeds.
God is not inherantly Good if he created evil and subjected us to it when he actually did not have to in the first place?
The difference is what you do as a fallible human being is not on the same level as what God does and a perfect being. Evil exists in this world, that is a fact. God allows evil to exist, moreover he claims to have created it ...
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(ra'): I the LORD do all these things.
Note that the word in the hebrew here translated evil is "ra'" ... The same hebrew word which is translated evil in the phrase "tree of the knowledge of good and evil(ra')" ...
And then again it is written ...
Pro 16:4
The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Here it is again, plain as day, God made the wicked for the day of evil, moreover he did it for himself. Now what Could be the purpose of God creating the wicked and the day of evil for himself? In what way does the wicked and the day of evil serve God and or his will in all things?
The answer is really not so hard to understand, evil exists and our knowledge of it exists in order that we can know what Good is. It is for simple rational contrast. In order to truly know and understand what a man is you have to know what a women is ... In order to know what day is you have to know what night is. The same with up and down, left and right, in and out, above and below, winter and summer, right and wrong, good and evil, etc. etc. etc. ...
Evil and sin are ultimately Gods gift to humanity, so that we might learn about what is truly Good and why. When i experience the destruction which is wrought by evil and sin, i can truly appreciate why it is evil and considered to be sin. And thereby i will more fully appreciate and truly understand what Good is ...
I really don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this. It makes perfect sense to me ...
In other threads several people have told me that God didn't want man to sin. At first glance this statement might seem plausible, but we need to think further on this. I hope people do not find this topic "offensive", I am merely trying to understand the truth and understand what the scriptures say.
Now, if God didn't want man to sin... why do we sin? Surely we know God hates sin, and wants to do away with sin; I'm not here to argue against that. But did God's creation fail because it sinned, or did God intend for man to sin?
Certainly God intended for Christ to be the lamb who takes away for the sin of the world. And God intended that men betray and capture Jesus so that Jesus' mission could be accomplished on the cross. God intended that Judas betray Jesus; Judas was doomed to this fate before he was ever born. So there we have proof that God intends at leastsome sin.
Now look at these verses:
NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
According to this scripture, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. Vanity is sin. Disobedience is sin. Yet God subjected and bound us over to it. Now if you are going to say that God didn't intend men to sin, you better have a pretty good answer to these verses above.
So we can see that God must have decreed sin take place at the very least so Christ would be sacrificed. God decrees that sin occur. He must ordain it, otherwise it would not be so. Does this make God a sinner, because He decrees sin? NO, most definitely not. Why? Because God does not sin in decreeing sin occur. God intends it to be that way for an ultimately good purpose. God takes responsibility for all creation through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ. God is using all this sin that occurs for a good purpose - to teach us how to be good, to teach us how to overcome evil, and to teach us how to love.
I don't want to hear arguments about "You are blaming God for sin or that makes God a sinner" because that is not what I am saying. If you disagree, please address the scriptures.
What a question! God gave mankind free will to choose. THAT covers a lot of the why mankind sins or otherwise messes up.
Many points of view just offer dogma to overlook the contradiction to Gods character and many do not realize it.
When the UR person objects to the doctrine of Calvinism and says that Calvinism depicts a God that is such and such, they actually rely on the same set of dogmatic statements to excuse God desiring child rape for a good purpose.
Both demand that "God does what he does for a good purpose and since he does it, it is ok".
The fact is, Adam and Eve never knew what Good was, until they ate of the tree of knowledge. It was the tree of the knowledge of Good AND evil ... Not just the tree of the knowledge of evil. One cannot know Good without knowing evil. That is the very nature of existence.
Rom 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?
No one has withstood His intention. Yet He still blames. Why? Because God is God and He believes that is what people need to see what He needs them to see.
What a question! God gave mankind free will to choose. THAT covers a lot of the why mankind sins or otherwise messes up.
Again, as I posted on the previous page, you don't put the most diabolical, clever, manipulative thing ever created with 2 children, which is what the first humans were, if not for a REASON!
Something much BIGGER than most of us realize is going on here!
The difference is what you do as a fallible human being is not on the same level as what God does and a perfect being. Evil exists in this world, that is a fact. God allows evil to exist, moreover he claims to have created it ...
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(ra'): I the LORD do all these things.
Note that the word in the hebrew here translated evil is "ra'" ... The same hebrew word which is translated evil in the phrase "tree of the knowledge of good and evil(ra')" ...
And then again it is written ...
Pro 16:4
The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Here it is again, plain as day, God made the wicked for the day of evil, moreover he did it for himself. Now what Could be the purpose of God creating the wicked and the day of evil for himself? In what way does the wicked and the day of evil serve God and or his will in all things?
The answer is really not so hard to understand, evil exists and our knowledge of it exists in order that we can know what Good is. It is for simple rational contrast. In order to truly know and understand what a man is you have to know what a women is ... In order to know what day is you have to know what night is. The same with up and down, left and right, in and out, above and below, winter and summer, right and wrong, good and evil, etc. etc. etc. ...
Evil and sin are ultimately Gods gift to humanity, so that we might learn about what is truly Good and why. When i experience the destruction which is wrought by evil and sin, i can truly appreciate why it is evil and considered to be sin. And thereby i will more fully appreciate and truly understand what Good is ...
I really don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this. It makes perfect sense to me ...
Selah ...
I don't know why either Ironmaw.....makes perfect sense to me also. Great post.
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God gave mankind free will to choose. THAT covers a lot of the why mankind sins or otherwise messes up.
