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Old 05-10-2010, 09:43 AM
 
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In other threads several people have told me that God didn't want man to sin. At first glance this statement might seem plausible, but we need to think further on this. I hope people do not find this topic "offensive", I am merely trying to understand the truth and understand what the scriptures say.

Now, if God didn't want man to sin... why do we sin? Surely we know God hates sin, and wants to do away with sin; I'm not here to argue against that. But did God's creation fail because it sinned, or did God intend for man to sin?

Certainly God intended for Christ to be the lamb who takes away for the sin of the world. And God intended that men betray and capture Jesus so that Jesus' mission could be accomplished on the cross. God intended that Judas betray Jesus; Judas was doomed to this fate before he was ever born. So there we have proof that God intends at least some sin.

Now look at these verses:

NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

According to this scripture, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. Vanity is sin. Disobedience is sin. Yet God subjected and bound us over to it. Now if you are going to say that God didn't intend men to sin, you better have a pretty good answer to these verses above.

So we can see that God must have decreed sin take place at the very least so Christ would be sacrificed. God decrees that sin occur. He must ordain it, otherwise it would not be so. Does this make God a sinner, because He decrees sin? NO, most definitely not. Why? Because God does not sin in decreeing sin occur. God intends it to be that way for an ultimately good purpose. God takes responsibility for all creation through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ. God is using all this sin that occurs for a good purpose - to teach us how to be good, to teach us how to overcome evil, and to teach us how to love.

I don't want to hear arguments about "You are blaming God for sin or that makes God a sinner" because that is not what I am saying. If you disagree, please address the scriptures.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:36 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,540,462 times
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I think there could be other aspects of this as well.

Gods intent may not be that of a desire to make us that way, when he could of made us differently, but a knowledge of how the nature of things must be in order that we become fit for the kingdom.

It is plausible that there are one of two things here.

1. God knew how things must be so he could have simply not created anything. But since he did, his intent to do so was done only through the knowledge that he would not lose one single one of us. So even though he knew we would sin, it was not from a desired plan, but through the knowledge of the nature of reality.

2. God is continually expanding because of the nature of who he is, what we experience has to happen because of that nature. When God expands we are the result, like a growing family.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,834,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
In other threads several people have told me that God didn't want man to sin. At first glance this statement might seem plausible, but we need to think further on this. I hope people do not find this topic "offensive", I am merely trying to understand the truth and understand what the scriptures say.

Now, if God didn't want man to sin... why do we sin? Surely we know God hates sin, and wants to do away with sin; I'm not here to argue against that. But did God's creation fail because it sinned, or did God intend for man to sin?

Certainly God intended for Christ to be the lamb who takes away for the sin of the world. And God intended that men betray and capture Jesus so that Jesus' mission could be accomplished on the cross. God intended that Judas betray Jesus; Judas was doomed to this fate before he was ever born. So there we have proof that God intends at least some sin.

Now look at these verses:

NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

According to this scripture, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. Vanity is sin. Disobedience is sin. Yet God subjected and bound us over to it. Now if you are going to say that God didn't intend men to sin, you better have a pretty good answer to these verses above.

So we can see that God must have decreed sin take place at the very least so Christ would be sacrificed. God decrees that sin occur. He must ordain it, otherwise it would not be so. Does this make God a sinner, because He decrees sin? NO, most definitely not. Why? Because God does not sin in decreeing sin occur. God intends it to be that way for an ultimately good purpose. God takes responsibility for all creation through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ. God is using all this sin that occurs for a good purpose - to teach us how to be good, to teach us how to overcome evil, and to teach us how to love.

I don't want to hear arguments about "You are blaming God for sin or that makes God a sinner" because that is not what I am saying. If you disagree, please address the scriptures.
The creation did not sin. It was man that sin. That is why the Creation was subject to frustration as stated in Romans 8:20. That is why in Verse 19 it says: "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." The Sons of God are all those who believe. So creation is waiting for the manifestation of the son's of God which will happen when Christ returns. Then there will be a peace to creation. The creature (the lions, tigers and bears, oh my!) will no longer be frustruated.

As for the second verse you gave, Romans 11:32 it is refering to the nation of Israel. Paul is continuing his theme of Mercy that is given to the gentile while the Jew has lost that mercy. See 11:17 and 11:24 concerning the olive branch that was cut out of the root (Israel) and the olive branch that was grafted in (gentiles).

These verses do not refer in any way to God frustrating creation. God created the creation good, but by the fall of man and man's sin in the garden a curse came upon all creation. Because all of Creation was given to man by God at the beginning, so when man sinned all that was under his dominion was brought under the curse. Just like if you had land and property, but sinned by not paying you mortgage all that you owned would be lost to the bank and whoever then would have control of it could do whatever they want with your property. In the case of man's sin, the one who had control was the curse and all of creation became cursed.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:06 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,951,016 times
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Nikk, did God create Adam flesh?

Did not Adam say "This is now flesh of my flesh" concerning Eve?

Romans 8:6-8 CLV For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Yet God created Adam flesh knowing full well his flesh would not be subject to God's law in the garden and that Adam would not be able to please Him.

===========
Did God create Adam soulish?

1 Corinthians 15:45-46 CLV (45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

God knew that in making Adam soulish that he would not be able to receive those things which are of God's spirit and Adam would not be able to know them.

And yet in God creating Adam flesh and soulish it was very good because it was the means to bring forth the Saviour to save us out of our fleshliness and soulishness.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:11 AM
 
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It was not God's intention for Adam & Eve to ever commit sin; they and their eventual offspring were always to have walked in holiness; they were to have never known sickness, pain, hurt or death. This is God's love.

However, once they reached out for the works of the devil (sin), then they were given over to him. Consequently, mankind became slaves to the devil; mankind was no longer in God's image, which is holiness. This is the reason Jesus came; He came to restore us back into God's image. This is what salvation is all about.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:17 AM
 
Location: texas
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My understanding(from a laymen's point of view) is that God created man with free will and it was that free will that ultimately led man to sin. Adam, as did Eve, had a choice to make, and they both chose sin rather than life.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kingdomcome1 View Post
My understanding(from a laymen's point of view) is that God created man with free will and it was that free will that ultimately led man to sin. Adam, as did Eve, had a choice to make, and they both chose sin rather than life.
You are correct. Had they lived free from sin, as we are today under grace, then all would have been well.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
20,160 posts, read 19,769,316 times
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I don't believe God wants us to sin, but I believe He knows we will. So are we really talking about us, or about Adam and Eve?

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-10-2010 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:56 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,540,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdomcome1 View Post
My understanding(from a laymen's point of view) is that God created man with free will and it was that free will that ultimately led man to sin. Adam, as did Eve, had a choice to make, and they both chose sin rather than life.
In what scripture is the term free will defined?
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:20 PM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,834,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Nikk, did God create Adam flesh?

Did not Adam say "This is now flesh of my flesh" concerning Eve?

Romans 8:6-8 CLV For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Yet God created Adam flesh knowing full well his flesh would not be subject to God's law in the garden and that Adam would not be able to please Him.

===========
Did God create Adam soulish?

1 Corinthians 15:45-46 CLV (45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

God knew that in making Adam soulish that he would not be able to receive those things which are of God's spirit and Adam would not be able to know them.

And yet in God creating Adam flesh and soulish it was very good because it was the means to bring forth the Saviour to save us out of our fleshliness and soulishness.
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7)

Man was formed with three parts in the "image of God": From the dust a body, the breath of life (spirit) in his nostrils and he became a living soul.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." (Zech 12:1)

Confirmation that man was formed with a spirit!

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Cor 2:11)

Confirmation that man has a spirit. It does not say the Christian spirit or the spirit of Christ in man, but the spirit of man!

In Romans, Paul is talking of the carnal mind. Not the mind of Flesh itself, but minded toward fleshly things, that is why we need to be spiritually minded towards God even though we dwell in fleshly bodies.
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