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Old 05-11-2010, 06:19 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.

What traditional Christianity has done after Rome took control of the religion was to connect the words and or concepts of Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, tartaroo, as the same thing. Especially after the words were translated with the one old English/Germanic term Hell. It is obvious theological subterfuge for the purpose of confusing the sound pattern of words, which were the original words of the scriptures, in order to deceive the masses into fearing such a preposterous and diabolical false doctrine.

Add to that the mistranslation of the words "aion/aionion/aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", among various other mistranslations, and the doctrine of ET seems to be scriptural to the uneducated profane masses. But when one comes to realize the clever deception in these translations and the theology which they are explained with, the whole doctrine of ET false apart.

That is why the doctrine of ET is failing around the world as people have greater access to more information concerning the original manuscripts of the scriptures, and more information concerning the original gospel taught and believed by the majority of early Christians(especially throughout the east) during the first four centuries CE.



Selah ...
Thank goodness for learned posts such as this and other posters including Irene Wright.

You make a difference in peoples lives and sometimes Christians like myself who have full time jobs and many things to do can be refreshed by the good common sense and pointed expertise in the scriptures.

I'm really glad to have read this thread and will refer to it when , in life
absurd , and hate join hands to construct a unspeakable domain such as hell. I would like to add something :

95% of mankind , yesterday and today are constantly being threatened by
financial strife, social acceptance, physical survival ect ect.

Shouldn't there be something in refuge , bereft of threat in its thrust for reason ?
Of course there is, that something is a good wholesome attempt at
living a life of virtue always looking for ways to improve out of what...?
Not fear, but out of the love of the creator.

Finally, where relatives are concerned for myself and equally to be sure for others, it would be well advised to caution against girls or women becoming tangled up or involved with the hate, and hell believer.
I don't even want to imagine what goes on behind closed doors with someone who "truly believes that a eternal location of horror exists for
what would be the "majority of mankind"
MY GOD

Again thankyou good posters for intelligent and truely inspired writings.
It makes a difference for so many good people !
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:56 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,380 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. The good news is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire. Or hell. Same place.

And the good news is this.

John 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Why? Because...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

The bad news on the other hand is this...

John 3:36 ...he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 ...for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

The faithful servant of God will warn of what awaits those who die without Christ.
Read the parts I underlined. NOTHING SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT A PLACE!! You are confused.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:14 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.

Here are the words of Jesus Himself.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

First, from this verse, it is shown that soul survives the death of the body. Man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.

Second, Jesus warns to fear Him (God) who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. This is not a reference to the garbage dump outside of Jeresalem. The soul is not destroyed in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. The soul can be destroyed in Gehenna-hell-the lake of fire. Destruction is the Greek word APOLLUMI which does not mean cessation of existence but eternal ruin and uselessness in hell. Strong's number for Perish or destroy is G622.


Quote:
What traditional Christianity has done after Rome took control of the religion was to connect the words and or concepts of Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, tartaroo, as the same thing. Especially after the words were translated with the one old English/Germanic term Hell. It is obvious theological subterfuge for the purpose of confusing the sound pattern of words, which were the original words of the scriptures, in order to deceive the masses into fearing such a preposterous and diabolical false doctrine.


Anyone who has done a little studying will know that Sheol and Hades both refer to the same place. The temporary place where unbelievers go to when they die, while awaiting their final judgment at the Great White throne of Revelation 20:11-15 to the eternal lake of fire.

And that Gehenna is the same place as the lake of fire, also known as the furnace of fire, the eternal fire, the place where their worm never dies, and other descriptive terms.

And that TARTARUS is the temporary place of confinement of those particuliar fallen angels who infiltrated the human race in Genesis 6.They await their final judgment at which time they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Trying to muddy up the issue with regard to what the original languages say about these places by appealing to the KJV's use of hell for all of them does not change the reality of the existence of them and what their purpose is.


Quote:
Add to that the mistranslation of the words "aion/aionion/aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", among various other mistranslations, and the doctrine of ET seems to be scriptural to the uneducated profane masses. But when one comes to realize the clever deception in these translations and the theology which they are explained with, the whole doctrine of ET false apart.
The lake of fire is eternal. The claim to the contrary is a typical universalist error.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The many skilled and learned translators of the various translations knew what they were doing when they translated as eternal, the passages referring to hell.



Quote:
That is why the doctrine of ET is failing around the world as people have greater access to more information concerning the original manuscripts of the scriptures, and more information concerning the original gospel taught and believed by the majority of early Christians(especially throughout the east) during the first four centuries CE.

Selah ...
To the contrary.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4) and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.


Following is the article from the original post for those who are interested...

It speaks of hell as a place of choice, truth, fair treatment, and lost hope. It touches on some of the so called 'second chance' verses that Universalist's misuse to promote the false teaching that all men will be saved. Universalism rests upon a misunderstanding of some supposedly 'difficult' passages which are used to counter the many clear passages that state beyond doubt to any reasonable person that hell, the eternal fire is the eternal home of those who reject Christ as Savior. Further, the use of the Greek word AIONION as it relates to things eternal, is mentioned.

Predictably, those who adhere to Universalism will voice their objections to the use of the word 'hell' and will attempt to pick apart what the article says concerning it, but I post this for seeker's of truth. I hope there are those who will heed its message.





What Does the Bible Say About Hell?

Article is by Herb Vander Lugt, senior research editor for RBC Ministries. When I read this article, it seemed to be the only link on the site which was working at the time.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:28 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Read the parts I underlined. NOTHING SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT A PLACE!! You are confused.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

To depart from one place requires another place to depart to.

An eternal fire which has been prepared, needs a place in which it has been prepaired.

Those who go away need a place to go away to.

Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In order for a person to be thrown into the lake of fire, there needs to be a place where the lake of fire exist's.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:39 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Your post was trying to prove something that just simply is not true. "it is expected", you say? You may expect people to see through that, that's what you may expect.
The following is what the above poster is referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Regarding the phrase 'there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,' it is indeed descriptive of the eternal fire.

Matthew 13:40 ''Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age (reference to the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns at the Second Advent and casts unbelievers off the earth as per Matthew 24:36-41 and 25:31-46). 41) ''The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 ) and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The one's who commit lawlessness in verse 41 are the same ones mentioned n Matthew 7:23 to whom Christ will say, ''And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS. This last verse harkens back to Matt 7:13,14 which refers to those who enter destruction by the wide gate and the broad way.

Jesus will never say to a believer that He never knew them. John 10:14 ''I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me.

Matthew 13:49-50 speaks to this as well. ''So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50) and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These are unbelievers who have survived to the end of the Tribulation and who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, but will be cast into the eternal fire.

The furnace of fire of Matthew 13:50 is the very same eternal fire of Matthew 25:41 which has been prepared for the devil and his angels and into which Jesus Christ will order the accursed ones-unbelievers, who will go away into eternal punishment as per Matthew 25:46.

And there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


As for the phrase, 'the outer darkness,' that also refers to the eternal fire.

In Luke 13:20 Jesus asks what He shall compare the kingdom of God to. In verse 24 He says ''Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. This compares with Matthew 7:13,14 which speaks of entering by the narrow gate.

Now read carefully Luke 13:23-28 And someone said to Him, ''Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?'' And He said to them, 24) ''Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25) ''Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26) ''Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27) and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where your are from, DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'28) ''There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.

The Luke 13:23-28 passage compares with the other passages mentioned above, and the ones being cast out in verse 28 are being cast out into the outer darkness (though the words outer darkness are not specified).

The passages that tell of 'the outer darkness' (Matt 8:12; 22:13; and 25:30) are a reference to hell.


The following link goes into much more detail about this.

The ‚€œOuter Darkness‚€Ě: Heaven‚€™s Suburb or Hell? | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site


Note also, that in Jude 1:6 Tartarus, which is Not the lake of fire and is not hades, but rather, is the temporary place of confinement for the group of fallen angels that infiltrated the human race in Gen 6 which resulted in the Nephilim; is described as the place where the 'angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

And in 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.

The word 'Tartarus is not found in Jude 6 but is the same place as described in 2 Peter 2:4 where the word 'Tartarus' IS used. 1 Peter 3:8 also speaks of Tartarus although not by name.

And then there is Jude 13 which speaks of the wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

The phrases 'there will be gnashing of teeth,' and 'the outer darkness' are just two of a number of decriptive terms that are used for hell. The lake of fire.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:10 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

To depart from one place requires another place to depart to.

An eternal fire which has been prepared, needs a place in which it has been prepaired.

Those who go away need a place to go away to.

Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In order for a person to be thrown into the lake of fire, there needs to be a place where the lake of fire exist's.
First of all, these two verses weren't on your post that I quoted, so it didn't make sense for you to post verses, for me to say those verses don't speak of a place, and then for you to, in essence, say "Yes, they do," and then explain how two completely different verses talk about a place. Wow.

Secondly, notice that the "depart" verses say absolutely nothing about believing in Jesus, which you say is the only way to be saved. Better study on that a little more. It's all about loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Notice, also, that they called him "Lord," so they were believers.
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Also, if you trust that Rev. 20:14 is a literal lake of fire, then you should trust that you will worship a baby sheep. No difference at all. Both are symbolic.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:37 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,081 times
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.

What traditional Christianity has done after Rome took control of the religion was to connect the words and or concepts of Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, tartaroo, as the same thing. Especially after the words were translated with the one old English/Germanic term Hell. It is obvious theological subterfuge for the purpose of confusing the sound pattern of words, which were the original words of the scriptures, in order to deceive the masses into fearing such a preposterous and diabolical false doctrine.

Add to that the mistranslation of the words "aion/aionion/aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", among various other mistranslations, and the doctrine of ET seems to be scriptural to the uneducated profane masses. But when one comes to realize the clever deception in these translations and the theology which they are explained with, the whole doctrine of ET false apart.

That is why the doctrine of ET is failing around the world as people have greater access to more information concerning the original manuscripts of the scriptures, and more information concerning the original gospel taught and believed by the majority of early Christians(especially throughout the east) during the first four centuries CE.


Mike555 says:


Here are the words of Jesus Himself.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).


Stargazzer Says (sorry about the orange print)

Death of the soul, which is "not" for any man to pass judgment on not even Mike555 ,would obviously be an outrage to the ultimate reason for ones existence.

Above quote in scripture is a reference to the '"state" in transitory explanation of a
required instance of temporal significance, not obviously a statement that would lead
to believe something for which the statement "was not" uttered for, that being the existence of hell.

Mike 555 even a person who does not study scripture all day long and has a job can SEE that your putting words in the mouths of the message that are not there.

Ive learned in life that there are some who "refuse" to learn and grow from the wisdom of others . I am willing to learn and have learned from others in this thread. You Refuse.

Now its come to the point where ...I am seeing the faltered and groping anxiety to construct this hell you desire
.
You can argue scripture until the cows come home but the ABILITY to measure the real message of such old writings is very rare.
Maybe if you are willing to say......MAYBE I CAN LEARN MORE AND I WANT TO BE THOROUGH ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE...there will be hope to comprehend spirituality instead of...
DICTATING THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MIKE555
Oh I almost forgot.....
You must be about 2000 yrs old and witnessed everything to so perfectly interpet all these old writings.
Wheres your, maybe your right , II'l have to think on that.....oh no you got it all down in spite of most learned people here who articulate with not only more freedom but more info....that incedently you simply "repeat and then bring out your bible tape recorder" We never see freedom in speech from yourself ...I wonder why ???

Last edited by stargazzer; 05-11-2010 at 10:55 PM..
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:40 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
First of all, these two verses weren't on your post that I quoted, so it didn't make sense for you to post verses, for me to say those verses don't speak of a place, and then for you to, in essence, say "Yes, they do," and then explain how two completely different verses talk about a place. Wow.

Secondly, notice that the "depart" verses say absolutely nothing about believing in Jesus, which you say is the only way to be saved. Better study on that a little more. It's all about loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Notice, also, that they called him "Lord," so they were believers.
Loving your neighbor has nothing whatsoever with becoming eternally saved. The issue is always faith in Christ.

The people in Mathew 7:21 were not believers. That's the entire point of the passage. They never personally believed in Christ for salvation. That is why Jesus said that He never knew them and that is why He commanded them to depart from Him. Calling Christ Lord does not make a person a believer.

As it says in Phil 2:10 'that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. 11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Even His defeated enemies will be forced to acknowledge before they are thrown into the lake of fire forever, that Jesus is Lord.


Quote:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Also, if you trust that Rev. 20:14 is a literal lake of fire, then you should trust that you will worship a baby sheep. No difference at all. Both are symbolic.
The lake of fire has many descriptive names. The place is real and is the eternal destination of those who die without Christ.

Why make an issue of 'place' except to attempt to disprove the existence of hell?

I therefore used verses to show 'place.'

Many other verses show the necessity of believing in Christ. It is therefore meaningless to point to a particular verse and make an issue of it not saying 'believe.'

Belief is always the issue in salvation. All sin was paid for on the cross. Therefore sin is not an issue in salvation. The issue in salvation is always, What think you of Christ? If a person dies without believing in Christ, he is judged not on the basis of sin which has already been paid for. He is instead judged on the basis of his works as per Revelation 20:11-15. That is also addressed in Matthew 25:31-46. The works of the unbeliever arise from human righteousness which is always rejected by God. Isaiah 64:6 And all of our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Titus 3:5 He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:52 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.

What traditional Christianity has done after Rome took control of the religion was to connect the words and or concepts of Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, tartaroo, as the same thing. Especially after the words were translated with the one old English/Germanic term Hell. It is obvious theological subterfuge for the purpose of confusing the sound pattern of words, which were the original words of the scriptures, in order to deceive the masses into fearing such a preposterous and diabolical false doctrine.

Add to that the mistranslation of the words "aion/aionion/aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", among various other mistranslations, and the doctrine of ET seems to be scriptural to the uneducated profane masses. But when one comes to realize the clever deception in these translations and the theology which they are explained with, the whole doctrine of ET false apart.

That is why the doctrine of ET is failing around the world as people have greater access to more information concerning the original manuscripts of the scriptures, and more information concerning the original gospel taught and believed by the majority of early Christians(especially throughout the east) during the first four centuries CE.





Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.


Mike555 quote

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Jesus spoke more about Gehenna than anyone else ... That is true. As a matter of fact none of the apostles even mention Gehenna except for James who uses it as an allegory of the tongue. If Gehenna were such a real place where most people are going to spend eternity after death then why didn't any of the apostles refer to it as such a place? Or even refer to it at all?

The concept of Gehenna as a place of everlasting torment is completely foreign to the new and old testaments alike. Gehenna was a trash pit where the bodies of criminals where disposed of after they died, and that is how Christ speaks of it when he is warning ISRAEL of the then coming judgments which already took place in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with everlasting punishment. Aionios kolasis is the correction(judgment) of the age, which took place in 70 AD.

What traditional Christianity has done after Rome took control of the religion was to connect the words and or concepts of Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, tartaroo, as the same thing. Especially after the words were translated with the one old English/Germanic term Hell. It is obvious theological subterfuge for the purpose of confusing the sound pattern of words, which were the original words of the scriptures, in order to deceive the masses into fearing such a preposterous and diabolical false doctrine.

Add to that the mistranslation of the words "aion/aionion/aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", among various other mistranslations, and the doctrine of ET seems to be scriptural to the uneducated profane masses. But when one comes to realize the clever deception in these translations and the theology which they are explained with, the whole doctrine of ET false apart.

That is why the doctrine of ET is failing around the world as people have greater access to more information concerning the original manuscripts of the scriptures, and more information concerning the original gospel taught and believed by the majority of early Christians(especially throughout the east) during the first four centuries CE.





Here are the words of Jesus Himself.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

Stargazzer Says
Death of the soul, which is "not" for any man to pass judgment on not even Mike555 ,would obviously be an outrage to the ultimate reason for ones existence.
Above quote in scripture is a reference to the '"state" in transitory explanation of a
required instance of temporal significance, not obviously a statement that would lead
to believe something for which the statement "was not" uttered for, that being the existence of hell.
Mike 555 even a person who does not study scripture all day long and has a job can SEE that your putting words in the mouths of the message that are not there.
Ive learned in life that there are some who "refuse" to learn and grow from the wisdom of others . I am willing to learn and have learned from others in this thread. You Refuse.
Now its come to the point where ...I am seeing the faltered and groping anxiety to construct this hell you desire.
You can argue scripture until the cows come home but the ABILITY to measure the real message of such old writings is very rare.
Maybe if you are willing to say......MAYBE I CAN LEARN MORE AND I WANT TO BE THOROUGH ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE...there will be hope to comprehend spirituality instead of...
DICTATING THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MIKE555 Oh I almost forgot.....
You must be about 2000 yrs old and to have discussed all the Gospels with the writers and Jesus himself. Either that or you must be EMailing God himself in order to mandate your
command over all people. Wow
The issue is this.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not obey the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Salvation is contingent on believing in Christ. Those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. This is the issue that all must face. The decision that all must make.

No reasonable person can deny the reality of the lake of fire that is so clearly affirmed by the word of God. The only ones who reject the reality of hell are those who have set themselves against the truth.
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:21 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,081 times
Reputation: 478
Well your sure a hard worker,
Mike555says
The issue is this.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not obey the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Salvation is contingent on believing in Christ. Those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. This is the issue that all must face. The decision that all must make.

No reasonable person can deny the reality of the lake of fire that is so clearly affirmed by the word of God. The only ones who reject the reality of hell are those who have set themselves against the truth.

Stargazzer says....Have you seen God, the lake of fire, the angels in heaven and so on ?
If not , then it is your faith that creates the imagined reality.

Faith is best served focusing on self imperfection and striving to wards goodness.
You also mentioned..."loving your neighbor has nothing to do with salvation"
I won't address that as its gotta be a goof up

Fear is the "least of all graces" are you aware of that ?

Lets try this.....you have a friend ....would you rather he or she was afraid of you for their loyalty.
Were all here for a reason and if God wanted us to know everything including his undeniable existence he would log on to city data and allow full explanation.

We are supposed to "learn and care " for our neighbor and humbly see that we are not perfect.
The lake of fire or above wrath taken in total word for word leaves a God who would have his friends fearful and afraid of him. If you would not like this , why would God ?

To love , includes to want to know more about the one who is loved.
Attempts to know more about God is an expression of affection.
Imparting gruesome lakes of fire is not getting to know God its imparting primitive fear-control tactics on people.
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