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Old 05-12-2010, 12:42 AM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,593,965 times
Reputation: 478

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My final comment for the day is a person must have "Peace" within there being in order to....
"extend peace"
It is not possible to have peace in the abundance befitting peace
within , when engaged in the contemplation of everything God detests,
including acts that are overflowing with vengeance.

To attach vengeance to God is heart breaking.

Contemplation of the existence of hell and its eternal torment together with imagined manifestations of the,
prince of darkness serve only as a shelter in avoidance of humility.

Humility to see that we are not perfect and do our best. Not blaming things on ghosts and scarring others in a "subconscious effort", to convince the conscious mind....better be good and behave.
Stargazzer

Last edited by stargazzer; 05-12-2010 at 12:51 AM..
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Loving your neighbor has nothing whatsoever with becoming eternally saved. The issue is always faith in Christ.
Really Mike? Loving your neighbor is what then? Totally useless or what? Faith has no merit yet loving your neighbor does... Interesting to see your thought process here. Is it the messenger, the message, or God that you adore?


Quote:
Even His defeated enemies will be forced to acknowledge before they are thrown into the lake of fire forever, that Jesus is Lord.
So they have the time to acknowledge Jesus as Lord but that is not the same as repentance? If they didn't believe/have faith but then they see for themselves it is true then what good is faith if you have it right in front of you? Then because they did not believe/have faith when they did not see (like THOMAS) then they are thrown in the lake of fire FOREVER? How can that make sense? If you are forced to acknowledge God/Jesus then why the need to throw you in the lake of fire? What is the purpose since belief/faith wouldn't matter after you are face to face with God/Jesus...

Not to mention that you have objected to the fact that anyone will be FORCED to be saved but you are fine with them being FORCED to acknowledge Jesus is Lord then FORCED into the lake of fire FOREVER yet we must choose GOD during life WILLINGLY which is why we have a choice in the first place....

Your theology is all over the place but hardly logical. IMO




Quote:
The lake of fire has many descriptive names. The place is real and is the eternal destination of those who die without Christ.
Says the guy who just got back from there?

Quote:
Why make an issue of 'place' except to attempt to disprove the existence of hell?

I therefore used verses to show 'place.'

Many other verses show the necessity of believing in Christ. It is therefore meaningless to point to a particular verse and make an issue of it not saying 'believe.'

Belief is always the issue in salvation.
Again you think the focus of the bible is on God being believed when it is clear that the Israelites were doing something wrong yet BELIEVED in God the whole time.

Quote:
All sin was paid for on the cross. Therefore sin is not an issue in salvation. The issue in salvation is always, What think you of Christ?
And that is the kicker for me! "What think you of Christ?" is what you think his message was? When did Christ ever say he wanted any of the glory? Didn't Christ ALWAYS point to God and not himself?

And why don't you get that the Israelites DID believe yet they were not "saved"... Yet you read the NT and think Christ wanted to be acknowledged? Do you completely miss the message of "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

1 John 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

Quote:
If a person dies without believing in Christ, he is judged not on the basis of sin which has already been paid for. He is instead judged on the basis of his works as per Revelation 20:11-15. That is also addressed in Matthew 25:31-46. The works of the unbeliever arise from human righteousness which is always rejected by God. Isaiah 64:6 And all of our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Titus 3:5 He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.


Are you saying that God doesn't love the unbeliever until God gets some recognition? Doesn't that go against everything you've come to know about God?
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: San Jacinto
46 posts, read 51,175 times
Reputation: 30
Go to concordant.org and read a lot. These are not simple one sentence answers.
Bob
k7vhq@earthlink.net
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Old 05-12-2010, 08:55 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,773,260 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Thank goodness for learned posts such as this and other posters including Irene Wright.

You make a difference in peoples lives and sometimes Christians like myself who have full time jobs and many things to do can be refreshed by the good common sense and pointed expertise in the scriptures.

I'm really glad to have read this thread and will refer to it when , in life
absurd , and hate join hands to construct a unspeakable domain such as hell. I would like to add something :

95% of mankind , yesterday and today are constantly being threatened by
financial strife, social acceptance, physical survival ect ect.

Shouldn't there be something in refuge , bereft of threat in its thrust for reason ?
Of course there is, that something is a good wholesome attempt at
living a life of virtue always looking for ways to improve out of what...?
Not fear, but out of the love of the creator.

Finally, where relatives are concerned for myself and equally to be sure for others, it would be well advised to caution against girls or women becoming tangled up or involved with the hate, and hell believer.
I don't even want to imagine what goes on behind closed doors with someone who "truly believes that a eternal location of horror exists for
what would be the "majority of mankind"
MY GOD

Again thankyou good posters for intelligent and truely inspired writings.
It makes a difference for so many good people !
Thank you very much for saying that Stargazzer!! I enjoy your posts also....so poetic. I hope and pray that we are all making a difference.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:27 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,795 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Loving your neighbor has nothing whatsoever with becoming eternally saved. The issue is always faith in Christ.
I didn't say it did. Salvation is a complete work of God. I was referring to what the "depart" verses mean. Jesus is teaching them how to treat their neighbor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The people in Mathew 7:21 were not believers. That's the entire point of the passage. They never personally believed in Christ for salvation. That is why Jesus said that He never knew them and that is why He commanded them to depart from Him. Calling Christ Lord does not make a person a believer.
Then you've missed the entire point of the passage. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says, "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. They called Him Lord to his face, which I would take to be the same as saying, "Jesus is Lord." Call them unbelievers if you wish, but they had the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As it says in Phil 2:10 'that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. 11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yes, we all will!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Even His defeated enemies will be forced to acknowledge before they are thrown into the lake of fire forever, that Jesus is Lord.
But you believe God is too nice to force anyone to go to heaven. According to your former posts, you even believe his "defeated enemies" include people who think being sorry for their sins is a requirement for salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue in salvation is always, What think you of Christ?
That's not in the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Isaiah 64:6 And all of our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Titus 3:5 He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
You quote these verses but don't even understand what they're saying. It's all about mercy, not about deeds. Making a wise choice is a deed. I know you'll deny this, though.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:31 AM
 
20,352 posts, read 15,730,497 times
Reputation: 7497
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Well your sure a hard worker,
Mike555says
The issue is this.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not obey the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Salvation is contingent on believing in Christ. Those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. This is the issue that all must face. The decision that all must make.

No reasonable person can deny the reality of the lake of fire that is so clearly affirmed by the word of God. The only ones who reject the reality of hell are those who have set themselves against the truth.

Stargazzer says....Have you seen God, the lake of fire, the angels in heaven and so on ?
If not , then it is your faith that creates the imagined reality.

Faith is best served focusing on self imperfection and striving to wards goodness.
You also mentioned..."loving your neighbor has nothing to do with salvation"
I won't address that as its gotta be a goof up

Fear is the "least of all graces" are you aware of that ?

Lets try this.....you have a friend ....would you rather he or she was afraid of you for their loyalty.
Were all here for a reason and if God wanted us to know everything including his undeniable existence he would log on to city data and allow full explanation.

We are supposed to "learn and care " for our neighbor and humbly see that we are not perfect.
The lake of fire or above wrath taken in total word for word leaves a God who would have his friends fearful and afraid of him. If you would not like this , why would God ?

To love , includes to want to know more about the one who is loved.
Attempts to know more about God is an expression of affection.
Imparting gruesome lakes of fire is not getting to know God its imparting primitive fear-control tactics on people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
My final comment for the day is a person must have "Peace" within there being in order to....
"extend peace"
It is not possible to have peace in the abundance befitting peace
within , when engaged in the contemplation of everything God detests,
including acts that are overflowing with vengeance.

To attach vengeance to God is heart breaking.

Contemplation of the existence of hell and its eternal torment together with imagined manifestations of the,
prince of darkness serve only as a shelter in avoidance of humility.

Humility to see that we are not perfect and do our best. Not blaming things on ghosts and scarring others in a "subconscious effort", to convince the conscious mind....better be good and behave.
Stargazzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Really Mike? Loving your neighbor is what then? Totally useless or what? Faith has no merit yet loving your neighbor does... Interesting to see your thought process here. Is it the messenger, the message, or God that you adore?


So they have the time to acknowledge Jesus as Lord but that is not the same as repentance? If they didn't believe/have faith but then they see for themselves it is true then what good is faith if you have it right in front of you? Then because they did not believe/have faith when they did not see (like THOMAS) then they are thrown in the lake of fire FOREVER? How can that make sense? If you are forced to acknowledge God/Jesus then why the need to throw you in the lake of fire? What is the purpose since belief/faith wouldn't matter after you are face to face with God/Jesus...

Not to mention that you have objected to the fact that anyone will be FORCED to be saved but you are fine with them being FORCED to acknowledge Jesus is Lord then FORCED into the lake of fire FOREVER yet we must choose GOD during life WILLINGLY which is why we have a choice in the first place....

Your theology is all over the place but hardly logical. IMO




Says the guy who just got back from there?


Again you think the focus of the bible is on God being believed when it is clear that the Israelites were doing something wrong yet BELIEVED in God the whole time.


And that is the kicker for me! "What think you of Christ?" is what you think his message was? When did Christ ever say he wanted any of the glory? Didn't Christ ALWAYS point to God and not himself?

And why don't you get that the Israelites DID believe yet they were not "saved"... Yet you read the NT and think Christ wanted to be acknowledged? Do you completely miss the message of "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

1 John 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.



Are you saying that God doesn't love the unbeliever until God gets some recognition? Doesn't that go against everything you've come to know about God?
The good news of the Gospel is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire. Or hell. Same place.

And the good news is this.

John 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Why? Because...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

The bad news on the other hand is this...

John 3:36 ...he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 ...for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

Eternal salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus Christ who died a substitionary spiritual death on the Cross on our behalf. Sin has been paid for. But God requires that man understands the issue in salvation and in so understandiing the issue-coming to a knowledge of the truth, desires to have an eternal relationship with God which prompts him to place his faith in Christ.

Salvation results from understanding that your salvation is totally dependant on Christ (the true Jesus Christ. Not some cult's version of Jesus Christ) and desiring to receive God's offer of salvation through Christ.

Acts 31:16 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, ''You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24) ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (the water of the word-the Gospel as per Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6) ''That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again

The alternative is eternal destruction in the lake of fire...

2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destuction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

The faithful servant of God will warn of what awaits those who die without Christ.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:37 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,795 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The good news of the Gospel is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire.
No, that's, "I've got some good news and some bad news. Which one do you want to hear first?"
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:42 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,697,919 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
No, that's, "I've got some good news and some bad news. Which one do you want to hear first?"
Yes, because under that doctrine, there is always a "Chance" that you might not make it.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:46 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,697,919 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The bad news on the other hand is this...

LOL, "The bad news of Jesus Christ"


Good one!!
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:54 AM
 
20,352 posts, read 15,730,497 times
Reputation: 7497
[quote=Mike555;14142086]The good news of the Gospel is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire. Or hell. Same place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
No, that's, "I've got some good news and some bad news. Which one do you want to hear first?"


Again!!! This is the good news and this is the issue!!!

John 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Why? Because...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

The bad news on the other hand is this...

John 3:36 ...he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 ...for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

Eternal salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus Christ who died a substitionary spiritual death on the Cross on our behalf. Sin has been paid for. But God requires that man understands the issue in salvation and in so understandiing the issue-coming to a knowledge of the truth, desires to have an eternal relationship with God which prompts him to place his faith in Christ.

Salvation results from understanding that your salvation is totally dependant on Christ (the true Jesus Christ. Not some cult's version of Jesus Christ) and desiring to receive God's offer of salvation through Christ.

Acts 31:16 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, ''You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24) ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (the water of the word-the Gospel as per Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6) ''That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again

The alternative is eternal destruction in the lake of fire...

2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destuction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

The faithful servant of God will warn of what awaits those who die without Christ. But there are many who wish to confuse the issue and deny the necessity of receiving God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ that the alternative may be avoided.
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