U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 05-12-2010, 09:44 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 4,376,087 times
Reputation: 726
Mike555 did the apostle Paul ever warn anyone about hell or the lake of fire?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-12-2010, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,391,355 times
Reputation: 495
[quote=Mike555;14142441]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The good news of the Gospel is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire. Or hell. Same place.





Again!!! This is the good news and this is the issue!!!

John 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Why? Because...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

The bad news on the other hand is this...

John 3:36 ...he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 ...for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

Eternal salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus Christ who died a substitionary spiritual death on the Cross on our behalf. Sin has been paid for. But God requires that man understands the issue in salvation and in so understandiing the issue-coming to a knowledge of the truth, desires to have an eternal relationship with God which prompts him to place his faith in Christ.

Salvation results from understanding that your salvation is totally dependant on Christ (the true Jesus Christ. Not some cult's version of Jesus Christ) and desiring to receive God's offer of salvation through Christ.

Acts 31:16 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, ''You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24) ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (the water of the word-the Gospel as per Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6) ''That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again

The alternative is eternal destruction in the lake of fire...

2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destuction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

The faithful servant of God will warn of what awaits those who die without Christ. But there are many who wish to confuse the issue and deny the necessity of receiving God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ that the alternative may be avoided.
So IOW.. The good news is that if we believe what YOU say we get to go to heaven but if we deny what YOU say is true then (BAD NEWS) we suffer eternally in hell?

or what qualifies as belief? URers believe in everything but the interpretation of hell... does that give them bad news or good news? What exactly do you HAVE to believe in order to hear good news?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 10:56 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,846,757 times
Reputation: 58110
There is NO bad news, it's all good! Nevermind what the ETer's say, God has a plan and it does NOT include burning in hellfire for eternity. It involves love, justice and reconciliation to our loving Father who provided a way for us to be able to do that....Jesus Christ.

There seems to be some confusion as to what "hell" is......it's not eternal. There will be a time for each person to be "refined" by God's consuming spiritual fire, which will be a different specified amount of time for each individual. However long it takes to burn off the "old man" and become refined gold. How great is that? Those who did not accept Christ as Saviour will indeed experience God's wrath as the Bible says, but it's not the type of "wrath" that ET wants you to believe. It's like what any Father would do to correct his child and bring him under his wing. Correction, not eternal separation!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 11:55 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,248,817 times
Reputation: 320
[quote=katjonjj;14143883]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

So IOW.. The good news is that if we believe what YOU say we get to go to heaven but if we deny what YOU say is true then (BAD NEWS) we suffer eternally in hell?

or what qualifies as belief? URers believe in everything but the interpretation of hell... does that give them bad news or good news? What exactly do you HAVE to believe in order to hear good news?
I don't think the ETer's really grasp what the Bible teaches concerning salvation and why Jesus died on the cross. If they did, they would know that God justifies the ungodly, and He did so by the very death of Jesus on that cross. Not only do the ETer's not believe this, they've not, as yet, been imputed with His righteousness. That's why they're so full of malice. They actually testify to their unbelief by denying the central message of the Gospel, That GOD JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY by Christ.

The ETer's believe the complete opposite of the Good News. They somehow think that you have to believe that God sets the ungodly on fire, the exact opposite of what the Gospel tells us..... I seriously doubt that when God told Abraham to look to the heavens and count the stars (Gen 15:6), that Abraham thought he said "I'm going to set the ungodly on fire". Nope, I don't think that's what Abraham believed, or thought....seems like the ETer's do though....

The ETer's are similar (in a spiritual sense) to the Al-Qaeda's of the earth. They're spiritual terrorists. The weird thing is, these are the very one's that Christ came to seek and to save. And to justify the ungodly with His blood. He justifies the perverted, those full of malice, hate and anger, the impious, the Hitler's, Mao's and ETer's of the world. That is truly what God's love is all about, to LOVE and JUSTIFY His enemies:

Rom 5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

Rom 4:7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;
Rom 4:8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

But how many people actually believe the Gospel, the Good News, that God JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 12:18 PM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,460,326 times
Reputation: 378
All willful sinners go to hell. You're either fit for heaven or fit for hell. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. Which is it? There's no in between. What road are you on today? The narrow road that leads to life or the broad one that leads to hell?

Mark 9
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

We can profess Jesus as Lord from now to doomsday, but He is not our Lord if we willfully commit sin. Jesus' own Words prove it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 12:31 PM
 
12,228 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I didn't say it did. Salvation is a complete work of God. I was referring to what the "depart" verses mean. Jesus is teaching them how to treat their neighbor.



Then you've missed the entire point of the passage. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says, "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. They called Him Lord to his face, which I would take to be the same as saying, "Jesus is Lord." Call them unbelievers if you wish, but they had the Holy Spirit.
Scripture does not contradict scripture. Anyone can mouth the words 'Jesus is Lord'. Only someone who has believed in Christ can understand what it means that Jesus IS Lord. Those spoken of in Matthew 7:22 had called Jesus Lord but had never trusted in Him for eternal salvation and Jesus orders them to depart from Him because HE NEVER KNEW THEM. These are the same people spoken of in Matthew 25:41 who are ordered by Christ into the eternal fire.

Now, however. Having departed from this life without believing in Christ for salvation, there is going to come a time when the unbeliever is going to be hauled up out of hades in resurrected body, and standing before Jesus Christ in all His glory, the unbeliever will be forced to concede and admit that he was wrong and that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord of all. He will then be thrown forever into the eternal fire.



Quote:
But you believe God is too nice to force anyone to go to heaven. According to your former posts, you even believe his "defeated enemies" include people who think being sorry for their sins is a requirement for salvation.


That's not in the bible.
Legalism is depending on human effort to be saved. Feeling sorry for sins thinking that it impresses God and is a requirement for salvation is works.

Salvation is strictly a matter of directing faith toward Christ as the Scriptures say.

All who die without Christ die in their sins and remain under condemnation. However, since those sin's were paid for by Christ, the unbeliever is sentenced to the lake of fire on the basis of his works. Rev 20:11-15.


Yes it is. Attitude toward Christ is the means of appropriating salvation. What think you of Christ? You must understand the issue in salvation in order to have a correct object of faith. It is faith directed toward the Jesus Christ of the Bible, not some cult's false idea of Christ that saves you.

Quote:
You quote these verses but don't even understand what they're saying. It's all about mercy, not about deeds. Making a wise choice is a deed. I know you'll deny this, though.
To the contrary. Making a choice is not a deed. The Bible distinquishes between faith and works. This has been gone over before.

The works of an unbeliever are produced by his relative human righteousness and are dead to God.

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Here is the choice...

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; (as opposed to the following person); but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 12:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 945,555 times
Reputation: 242
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
I didn't say it did. Salvation is a complete work of God. I was referring to what the "depart" verses mean. Jesus is teaching them how to treat their neighbor.

Then you've missed the entire point of the passage. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says, "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. They called Him Lord to his face, which I would take to be the same as saying, "Jesus is Lord." Call them unbelievers if you wish, but they had the Holy Spirit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Scripture does not contradict scripture. Anyone can mouth the words 'Jesus is Lord'. Only someone who has believed in Christ can understand what it means that Jesus IS Lord.
I don't see "anyone can mouth the words, 'Jesus is Lord' in 1 Corinthians 12:3. Why do you reject the teaching of that scripture?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 12:59 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,161,604 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Only someone who has believed in Christ can understand what it means that Jesus IS Lord.

Exactly, that is why when all bow and confess it is not empty, it is TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

The case does not stand that all bow and confess but for some it is too late, because that is NOT to the Glory of God the Father.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 01:07 PM
 
12,228 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
There is NO bad news, it's all good! Nevermind what the ETer's say, God has a plan and it does NOT include burning in hellfire for eternity. It involves love, justice and reconciliation to our loving Father who provided a way for us to be able to do that....Jesus Christ.

There seems to be some confusion as to what "hell" is......it's not eternal. There will be a time for each person to be "refined" by God's consuming spiritual fire, which will be a different specified amount of time for each individual. However long it takes to burn off the "old man" and become refined gold. How great is that? Those who did not accept Christ as Saviour will indeed experience God's wrath as the Bible says, but it's not the type of "wrath" that ET wants you to believe. It's like what any Father would do to correct his child and bring him under his wing. Correction, not eternal separation!!

The lake of fire is indeed eternal. And the punishment is punitive, not corrective.

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

Is Hell Eternal? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Apologetics Press - The Goodness of God and an Eternal Hell

There is good news and there is bad news. The contrast between the two is the issue!!!


The good news of the Gospel is that God provided a way to escape the eternal destruction of the lake of fire.



John 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Why? Because...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

The bad news on the other hand is this...

John 3:36 ...he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 ...for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

Eternal salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus Christ who died a substitionary spiritual death on the Cross on our behalf. Sin has been paid for. But God requires that man understands the issue in salvation and in so understandiing the issue-coming to a knowledge of the truth, desires to have an eternal relationship with God which prompts him to place his faith in Christ.

Salvation results from understanding that your salvation is totally dependant on Christ (the true Jesus Christ. Not some cult's version of Jesus Christ) and desiring to receive God's offer of salvation through Christ.

Acts 31:16 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, ''You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24) ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (the water of the word-the Gospel as per Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6) ''That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again

The alternative is eternal destruction in the lake of fire...

2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destuction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

The faithful servant of God will warn of what awaits those who die without Christ. But there are many who wish to confuse the issue and deny the necessity of receiving God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ that the alternative may be avoided.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2010, 01:39 PM
 
12,228 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
I didn't say it did. Salvation is a complete work of God. I was referring to what the "depart" verses mean. Jesus is teaching them how to treat their neighbor.

Then you've missed the entire point of the passage. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says, "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. They called Him Lord to his face, which I would take to be the same as saying, "Jesus is Lord." Call them unbelievers if you wish, but they had the Holy Spirit.



I don't see "anyone can mouth the words, 'Jesus is Lord' in 1 Corinthians 12:3. Why do you reject the teaching of that scripture?
It can be seen in Matthew 7:21-23.

Matthew 7:21 ''Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22) Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'' 23) ''And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; 'DEPART FROM ME, you who practice LAWLESSNESS.

They called Christ Lord, they prophecied in His name, they cast out demons, they performed many miracles, and Jesus told them He didn't know them, called them LAWLESS, and ordered them to depart from His presence. They were not allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven.

They had performed all those things but it is declared that they did not do the will of the Lord. And what is the will of the Lord?

Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.'

John 6:28 They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?'' 29) Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top