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Old 05-13-2010, 11:30 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,586,860 times
Reputation: 478

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My opinion is that it would be more difficult for a brand new baby to reject its Mother at birth
forcefully, than for a creature made by God to reject God at subjection.
Therefore, in light of my opinion and Mike555 post above of the end of times there will be no lake of fires.
As well, your changing your tune Mike555.
Now we have a second judgment face to face with God himself before to suggested damnation.
With all of it I consider the discussion lofty, in an effort to "grasp" something more outstanding than a fly , wondering if your on your way out specifically to purchase spray to kill him.
Oh no, thats ridiculous you say .
Well , the difference between the critter and you is NOTHING compared to a creator of this universe.
Thats why above , I correctly accuse this thread of being ridiculously lofty.
Now we see almost suggested visionary play-forward of what the heavens have in store.
GIVE ME A BREAK FOLKS...
I'm not buying into the puffed up attempt to relay something that could not even begin to be imagined, in respect to the creator.
Lets try this....can you imagine the overwhelming scope and size of the universe that this creator
built..?
Not even the greatest scientists can. Getting a handle on your on self in the humanity that it is
is a start to beginning a life of virtue.
Don't forget......words mean nothing, actions of reflection of Peace are all.
All I see here is a groping effort to adulate self and social approval.
Answers that are weak, philosophy's that "bore" with self opinion rather than inspiration.
have fun with the non ending dialog where nothing is achieved, because nothing is inspired
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,655 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You didn't read the first answer very well. All mankind has been reconciled to God. But that does not mean that all men are saved. I believe that I have explained it very well. But I cant make you read with comprehension. That's up to you.

Regarding the angels, I said that the Bible doesn't reveal whatever means that God used to offer the opportunity to the fallen angels to be restored to a relationship with Himself. All we know is that the fallen angels chose to reject the offer that God made to them.They along with Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and will be joined by unbelieving humanity.

WOW!

You are just making stuff up now.

I'm stumped.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:48 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,586,860 times
Reputation: 478
Mike, its just not realistic to believe that any person could reject God face to face.
Its just not. Seriously.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:52 PM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
WOW!

You are just making stuff up now.

I'm stumped.
Specify.
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,655 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Specify.
You are telling me that this story is in the Bible;

Once upon a time, there was God. He made angels, and then he made humans.

The angels got into a scuffle with God and then tricked the humans into following them.

God tried to make a deal with the angels to come back (Really? Let me know where that verse is). THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID! "He made an offer to restore them and they refused!" YES, YOU DID!

Angels said no and continued to blind humanity.

Score: Fallen angels and humans: In the billions. God: Not so much.

The end.



God is reconciling things in HEAVEN AND EARTH!


THE VERSE DOES NOT SAY He TRIED to reconcile! He IS
reconciling!

Last edited by herefornow; 05-14-2010 at 01:26 AM..
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:15 AM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
You are telling me that this story is in the Bible;

Once upon a time, there was God. He made angels, and then he made humans.

The angels got into a scuffle with God and then tricked the humans into following them.

God tried to make a deal with the angels to come back (Really? Let me know where that verse is). THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID! "He made an offer to restore them and they refused!" YES, YOU DID!
You have just asked me to find a verse in the Bible that YOU made up. Refer back to post #173.

I said that whatever means that God offered to the fallen angels to restore the broken relationship that their rebellion caused, is not stated in the Bible. I worded it a bit differently originally, but the point is that the Bible doesn't reveal the means by which God offered the angels a chance to be restored to fellowship with Him.



Quote:
Angels said no and continued to blind humanity.

Score: Fallen angels and humans: In the billions. God: Not so much.

The end.
A distortion of the facts.

Here now is an opportunity to learn of the angelic conflict...

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l-warfare.html

Those of you who are getting sick and tired of seeing the above link simply need not go into it.


Quote:
God is reconciling things in HEAVEN AND EARTH!


THE VERSE DOES NOT SAY He TRIED to reconcile! He IS
reconciling!
With the use of the word 'try' I must assume that you didn't read the answer. Here it is again. Perhaps someone else will benefit by it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His Cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Universal reconciliation is not the salvation of all men. The two don't equate because of the issue of man's volition being involved.

Reconciliation means to make at peace.

The work of Christ on the Cross is threefold in its direction. Redemption is sinward (man is redeemed from sin), and propitiation is Godward (God the Father is satisfied with the work of Christ on the Cross). Reconciliation is manward. (2 Cor 5:18,19; Eph 2:16; Col 1:20).

Because of sin, man is the enemy of God. (Rom 5:10; Col 1:21).

However, because of the sum total of the various facets of the work that Christ accomplished on the Cross, man has been made at peace with God-Reconciliation. (Eph 2:14-16; Col 1:20).

The prophecy of reconciliation is in (Isaiah 57:19).

Reconciliation is the result of the following:

1) Sin is removed by (a) Unlimited Atonement: (2 Cor 5:14, 15, 19; 1 Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 John 2:2). (b) Redemption: (Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; 1 Pet. 1:18,19).

2) The Penalty of sin is removed by Expiation: ( Psa. 22;1-6; Col. 2:14).

3) Regeneration- being born again: (John 3:1-18; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet. 1:23). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

4) The removal of the problem of man's relative righteousness or human good by the Imputation of God's very own absolute righteousness: (Rom. 3:22; 9:30-10:10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9; Heb. 10:14). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

5) Justification-being pronounced justified by God as a result of the imputation of His righteousness: (Rom. 4:1-5; 4:25; 5:1; 8:29,30; Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

6) God's perfect character satisfied or propitiated: (Rom. 3:22-26; 1 John 2:1,2).

7) Man's position in Adam is removed by Positional Sanctification (1 Cor. 15:22; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 1:3-6). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

As a result of reconciliation, the barrier of sin is removed. But now the issue becomes what think you of Christ. Man must make a decision to step over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by believing in Christ for salvation.

Man must receive the reconciliation that was accomplished at the Cross. The imputation of God's perfect righteousness and being pronounced justified by God which are involved in reconciliation don't occur until a person believes in Christ. That is why Paul made the appeal that he made in 2 Cor. 5:20. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Romans 3:22 says, even the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe.

The work that Christ accomplished on the Cross takes man out of the red, off the debit side of the ledger, but in order to be placed on the credit side of the ledger, in the black, man must make a decision to believe in Christ so that God's rigteousness can be imputed to him and thereby, be declared by God to be justified. Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

See link...

Justification

Therefore it is through faith in Christ that man receives the reconciliation which was accomplished at the Cross. Eternal salvation is applied to the person who places his trust in Jesus Christ. On the other hand, the work of Christ on the Cross is not applied to, is not appropriated by, the person who does not believe in Christ, and that person will die in his sins. (John 8:24).



John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So that's what's involved in reconcilition. As for the phrase 'whether things on earth of things in heaven,' see the following link. Scroll down to verse 20.


Colossians 1 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:42 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Whatever the means that God presented to the fallen angels for the purpose of restoring the broken relationship between them and God is not stated in the Scriptures.



Reconciliation does not mean salvation apart from faith in Christ. I have already given a more complete answer as to what is involved in reconciliation in the other post which you dismissed.
So you at least admit that God wants to restore a relationship even with fallen angels......Good.

Now, you are indeed making things up when you tell all of us out here in internet land that God tried (PAST TENSE) to restore a relationship with them and they rejected it. Check your above quote. You do not know this for a fact. At least admit it. What is it that UR folks are always accused of? Eisegesis? Actually, you don't even have a verse to refer to on this matter, so........

You have to make it up because, otherwise, you've got nothing.

I have often noticed that you are unyielding in your opinions until you are cornered. Instead of confessing and saying you might be a little confused on the subject or just even missed something, or maybe don't quite understand, you will adjust your frequency and move around just a bit. Interesting.

Remember, even LUTHER couldn't quite understand many parts of the Bible. He admitted it (gasp). And this was a die-hard kind of guy, kind of like yourself.

I'm a lot more willing to listen to people when they ADMIT they do not have all the answers.

Anyhow, I believe that God is reconciling ALL. Just as He said He would.

I don't need to use any mental gymnastics to try and figure out what the word RECONCILE means.

Final Answer, as they say.

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:46 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,724,249 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Mike, its just not realistic to believe that any person could reject God face to face.
Its just not. Seriously.
I totally agree.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:21 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,417,140 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Quote:
Mike, its just not realistic to believe that any person could reject God face to face.
Its just not. Seriously.
I totally agree.
This is how these conversations with an ETer usually go.

A: God wants to save all people, but some people will reject God forever.
B: They won't reject Him forever because all bow and confess His name, and all worship Him with praises.
A: Its a forced confession.
B: Why would God force a confession but not force them to be saved?
A: God respects free will.
B: Um, Ok..... but everyone is singing praises to God! Isaiah 45:23 even says all swear allegiance! No one could reject God face to face.
A: Its too late then for God to save them.
B: But I thought God wanted to save them?
A: God wants to save all people, but some will reject God forever...
B:

Talk about having your cake and eating it too...
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:39 PM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
So you at least admit that God wants to restore a relationship even with fallen angels......Good.
It's not a matter of admitting anything. It's a matter of being doctrinally correct.


Quote:
Now, you are indeed making things up when you tell all of us out here in internet land that God tried (PAST TENSE) to restore a relationship with them and they rejected it. Check your above quote. You do not know this for a fact. At least admit it. What is it that UR folks are always accused of? Eisegesis? Actually, you don't even have a verse to refer to on this matter, so........

You have to make it up because, otherwise, you've got nothing.
To the contrary. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war. 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

''Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
(This takes place midway through the Tribulation.)

One third of the angels rebelled against God with Satan and remained in rebellion, and will be thrown into the eternal fire with Satan.

Matt. 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

The character of God would have prompted Him to provide an opportunity for the fallen angels to be restored to a relationship with Him. They rejected it and will join Satan in the lake of fire whose final imprisonment in that place is recorded in Revelation 20:10. No reasonable person would deny this.

One third of the angels rebelled with Satan.


Revelation 12:4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth
.
Quote:
I have often noticed that you are unyielding in your opinions until you are cornered. Instead of confessing and saying you might be a little confused on the subject or just even missed something, or maybe don't quite understand, you will adjust your frequency and move around just a bit. Interesting.

Remember, even LUTHER couldn't quite understand many parts of the Bible. He admitted it (gasp). And this was a die-hard kind of guy, kind of like yourself.

I'm a lot more willing to listen to people when they ADMIT they do not have all the answers.

Anyhow, I believe that God is reconciling ALL. Just as He said He would.

I don't need to use any mental gymnastics to try and figure out what the word RECONCILE means.

Final Answer, as they say.

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard SAYING (LEGONTAS-Strong's number G3004. Singing is not implied),

''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.''

The fact that reference is made to those under the earth is not to be dismissed. It is a reference to the unsaved dead and also to the fallen angels that are currently imprisoned in Tartarus as per 2 Peter 2:4.

With reference to those who are under the earth, Christ's defeated enemies must acknowledge His glory.



For those who are interested, it would benefit you greatly to obtain the 8 volume 'Systematic Theology' by Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary.
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