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Old 05-14-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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[quote=Mike555;14177973]It's not a matter of admitting anything. It's a matter of being doctrinally correct.




To the contrary. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war. 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

''Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
(This takes place midway through the Tribulation.)

One third of the angels rebelled against God with Satan and remained in rebellion, and will be thrown into the eternal fire with Satan.

Matt. 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Quote:

The character of God would have prompted Him to provide an opportunity for the fallen angels to be restored to a relationship with Him. They rejected it and will join Satan in the lake of fire whose final imprisonment in that place is recorded in Revelation 20:10. No reasonable person would deny this.

One third of the angels rebelled with Satan.


Revelation 12:4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth
.


Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard SAYING (LEGONTAS-Strong's number G3004. Singing is not implied),

''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.''

With reference to those who are under the earth, Christ's defeated enemies must acknowledge His glory.

The fact that reference is made to those under the earth is not to be dismissed. It is a reference to the unsaved dead and also to the fallen angels that are currently imprisoned in Tartarus as per 2 Peter 2:4.

For those who are interested, it would benefit you greatly to obtain the 8 volume 'Systematic Theology' by Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary.
You are not hearing me. You need a new set of ears, perhaps?
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:51 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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[quote=herefornow;14178039]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It's not a matter of admitting anything. It's a matter of being doctrinally correct.




To the contrary. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war. 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

''Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
(This takes place midway through the Tribulation.)

One third of the angels rebelled against God with Satan and remained in rebellion, and will be thrown into the eternal fire with Satan.

Matt. 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
.
Quote:
You are not hearing me. You need a new set of ears, perhaps?
I have heard you. So has everyone else who is reading this. All that I am posting is for the benefit of whoever will listen.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-14-2010 at 02:05 PM..
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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[quote=Mike555;14178188]
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

.


I have heard you. So has everyone else who is reading this. All that I am posting is for the benefit of whoever will listen.
Thank you.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Mike, its just not realistic to believe that any person could reject God face to face.
Its just not. Seriously.
Satan and the fallen angels did.....
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Satan and the fallen angels did.....

And if you believe what mike555 says, God TRIED to reconcile them, too!

But I believe when God says he is busy reconciling ALL things back to him, he'll do it!

He has all the time in the universe!

He kind of owns time, and He's got a LOT of it!!
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
And if you believe what mike555 says, God TRIED to reconcile them, too!

But I believe when God says he is busy reconciling ALL things back to him, he'll do it!

He has all the time in the universe!

He kind of owns time, and He's got a LOT of it!!
Some people believe in universal reconciliation, but not universal salvation. They don't believe they go hand in hand. Does anyone here believe this?

Bible Life Ministries - Are the Sins of All Mankind Forgiven? Universal Reconciliation is True, but Universal Salvation is False.

Sorry, this is off topic. I shouldn't have posted this here.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:01 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
And if you believe what mike555 says, God TRIED to reconcile them, too!
But I believe when God says he is busy reconciling ALL things back to him, he'll do it!

He has all the time in the universe!

He kind of owns time, and He's got a LOT of it!!

To the contrary. Here is what I said...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His Cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Universal reconciliation is not the salvation of all men. The two don't equate because of the issue of man's volition being involved.

Reconciliation means to make at peace.

The work of Christ on the Cross is threefold in its direction. Redemption is sinward (man is redeemed from sin), and propitiation is Godward (God the Father is satisfied with the work of Christ on the Cross). Reconciliation is manward. (2 Cor 5:18,19; Eph 2:16; Col 1:20).

Because of sin, man is the enemy of God. (Rom 5:10; Col 1:21).

However, because of the sum total of the various facets of the work that Christ accomplished on the Cross, man has been made at peace with God-Reconciliation. (Eph 2:14-16; Col 1:20).

The prophecy of reconciliation is in (Isaiah 57:19).

Reconciliation is the result of the following:

1) Sin is removed by (a) Unlimited Atonement: (2 Cor 5:14, 15, 19; 1 Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 John 2:2). (b) Redemption: (Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; 1 Pet. 1:18,19).

2) The Penalty of sin is removed by Expiation: ( Psa. 22;1-6; Col. 2:14).

3) Regeneration- being born again: (John 3:1-18; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet. 1:23). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

4) The removal of the problem of man's relative righteousness or human good by the Imputation of God's very own absolute righteousness: (Rom. 3:22; 9:30-10:10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9; Heb. 10:14). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

5) Justification-being pronounced justified by God as a result of the imputation of His righteousness: (Rom. 4:1-5; 4:25; 5:1; 8:29,30; Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

6) God's perfect character satisfied or propitiated: (Rom. 3:22-26; 1 John 2:1,2).

7) Man's position in Adam is removed by Positional Sanctification (1 Cor. 15:22; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 1:3-6). Occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

As a result of reconciliation, the barrier of sin is removed. But now the issue becomes what think you of Christ. Man must make a decision to step over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by believing in Christ for salvation.

Man must receive the reconciliation that was accomplished at the Cross. The imputation of God's perfect righteousness and being pronounced justified by God which are involved in reconciliation don't occur until a person believes in Christ. That is why Paul made the appeal that he made in 2 Cor. 5:20. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Romans 3:22 says, even the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe.

The work that Christ accomplished on the Cross takes man out of the red, off the debit side of the ledger, but in order to be placed on the credit side of the ledger, in the black, man must make a decision to believe in Christ so that God's rigteousness can be imputed to him and thereby, be declared by God to be justified. Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

See link...

Justification

Therefore it is through faith in Christ that man receives the reconciliation which was accomplished at the Cross. Eternal salvation is applied to the person who places his trust in Jesus Christ. On the other hand, the work of Christ on the Cross is not applied to, is not appropriated by, the person who does not believe in Christ, and that person will die in his sins. (John 8:24).



John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So that's what's involved in reconcilition. As for the phrase 'whether things on earth of things in heaven,' see the following link. Scroll down to verse 20.


Colossians 1 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
A simple answer is often not the best answer. However...

Simply look at Col. 1:15. And He (Jesus Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him.

The visible and invisible, the thrones and dominions, the rulers and authorities gather together both the angelic and human races. The only two scripturally revealed levels of intelligent, moral, free-will beings.

Whatever the means that God presented to the fallen angels for the purpose of restoring the broken relationship between them and God is not stated in the Scriptures.

What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?

Reconciliation does not mean salvation apart from faith in Christ. I have already given a more complete answer as to what is involved in reconciliation in the other post which you dismissed.
Just as God provided a plan of salavation for man, and yet the majority of the human race will not be saved, so also, though not disclosed in the scriptures, God's character would have prompted Him to present to the angels who fell, a way to come back into a relationship with God. Yet, the fallen angels are still fallen and will forever be so.

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Some people believe in universal reconciliation, but not universal salvation. They don't believe they go hand in hand. Does anyone here believe this?

Bible Life Ministries - Are the Sins of All Mankind Forgiven? Universal Reconciliation is True, but Universal Salvation is False.

Sorry, this is off topic. I shouldn't have posted this here.
You can start a new thread if you want.

I'll read it over later this afternoon and get back to you. I'm working on a few things outside at the moment.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:14 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,749,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This is how these conversations with an ETer usually go.

A: God wants to save all people, but some people will reject God forever.
B: They won't reject Him forever because all bow and confess His name, and all worship Him with praises.
A: Its a forced confession.
B: Why would God force a confession but not force them to be saved?
A: God respects free will.
B: Um, Ok..... but everyone is singing praises to God! Isaiah 45:23 even says all swear allegiance! No one could reject God face to face.
A: Its too late then for God to save them.
B: But I thought God wanted to save them?
A: God wants to save all people, but some will reject God forever...
B:

Talk about having your cake and eating it too...
Hee hee, you're so right about this. It's especially funny to me seeing how I've said ALL of the above at one point or another. God really does work in mysterious, miraculous ways.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:16 PM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,581,721 times
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Good luck and peace Mike555
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