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Old 05-15-2010, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,392,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Some people believe in universal reconciliation, but not universal salvation. They don't believe they go hand in hand. Does anyone here believe this?

Bible Life Ministries - Are the Sins of All Mankind Forgiven? Universal Reconciliation is True, but Universal Salvation is False.

Sorry, this is off topic. I shouldn't have posted this here.

I just read through that link you gave me and I had to laugh just a bit.

CLEARLY, they are anti-Calvin!! This is what makes all of this so interesting. Arminians are right about much, and so are the Calvinists. They both are scripturally correct about a lot of things and have much more in common than they think!

Why do you think that is and why do you think they have warred against each other for so long?


I'll give you a hint: it has something to do with politics.

But, yes, we are way off topic now, so maybe you should start a new thread.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:55 PM
 
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Getting back to the article in the original post, I presented the following excerpt from that article...


Excerpt:

Quote:
We do not do people a favor when we remain silent about the subject of hell. Jesus, the prime example of God's love, spoke of hell repeatedly. He said that some would rise from death in the ''resurrection of condemnation'' (John 5:29). He declared that those who go to hell enter the horrible place where 'their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched'' (Mark 9:44,46,48). He also depicted it as a place of ''outer darkness,'' where there ''will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).
As stated in the article, Jesus said that some would be resurrected to condemnation.

John 5:28 ''Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29) and shall come forth; those who did the good, to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil to a resurrection of judgment.

This same contrast between the resurrection of believers and the resurrection of unbelievers was prophesied in Daniel 12:2 ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

These are contrasts. Distinctions made between the eternally saved, and the eternally lost.

The same contrast is made in these passages...

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Matthew 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

Contrasts. Distinctions. Contrasts and distinctions between those who are going to be resurrected to eternal life, and those who are going to be resurrected out of hades only to be transferred to their final and eternal habitation. Gehenna-Tophet-the lake of fire.

The resurrection to eternal life refers to the body. The soul of the believer has eternal life as of the very first moment he believed in Christ.

But as for those who reject Christ, here is what the Apostle Paul said about it. (This is with reference to the Lord's return at the Second Advent.)

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire (judgment), 8) Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


*** Disgrace and everlasting contempt; The wrath of God remains on him; Eternal punishment; Eternal destuction away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power is what awaits those who reject God's graceous offer of eternal salvation through faith in Christ.

Again, with regard to Matthew 25:46, this passage speaks of eternal punishment (eis kolasin aionion) and eternal life (eis zoen aionion). The structure of this verse is one of contrast, and because of this, AIONION (eternal) MUST have the same meaning for both. Thus since the righteous have eternal life, then the wicked have eternal punishment.

So also with John 3:36. He who believes has eternal life, while the one who does not obey (believe) WILL NOT SEE LIFE (EVER). The contrast is between those who believe and those who disobey (2 Thess 1:8, ...who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus). On these, the wrath of God abides (remains).

There are no mistranslations with regard to what the Bible says about the final disposition of those who have rejected Christ. There are no misunderstandings. It is not a matter of 'well, that's just your interpretation.'

Over and over, in numerous passages, and in various ways and by means of various descriptions, the Scriptures are adament in their declaration of the eternal punishment of those who reject the grace of God.

Both the Old and the New Testaments speak of the places which in the New Testament are called hades and gehenna.

Sheol = Hades: Temporary imprisonment

Tophet = Gehenna-lake of fire: Permanent imprisonment

Those who insist that AIONIOS does not refer to eternal punishment will continue to do so. To which I will simply present these sources of information.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


Now, it doesn't matter how much proof is provided, or how much evidence is given. The fact of the matter is that there are people who simply will resist and reject the truth regarding the eternal punishment which awaits those who die without Christ, because they find it umcomfortable to think that God could consign anyone to such a place as the lake of fire (hell). Explain to them that the very holiness of God requires and demands it, and they simply react with something to the effect that 'the holiness of God could never allow such a thing.' The exact opposite of reality. And that is the crux of the problem. The refusal to face reality in preference to their own ideologies and personally constructed and unscriptural beliefs which serve to sooth their emotions and make them feel good. To those such as this, reasoning is useless.

But reality is what it is. And it is to those who will listen to that which is true that I address this thread.
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But reality is what it is.
Reality is "something that exists independently of ideas concerning it," so since you've never seen hell you can't say it's a reality. Your faith in hell and your interpretation of scripture is what makes you believe in a literal lake of fire for eternal punishment of unbelievers. My faith in God's character and my interpretation of scripture is what makes me believe it's not a literal lake of fire.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:23 PM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Reality is "something that exists independently of ideas concerning it," so since you've never seen hell you can't say it's a reality. Your faith in hell and your interpretation of scripture is what makes you believe in a literal lake of fire for eternal punishment of unbelievers. My faith in God's character and my interpretation of scripture is what makes me believe it's not a literal lake of fire.
To the contrary. Reality is that which is revealed by the word of God.

2 Cor 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.

Faith in itself is meaningless. The merit is in the object of faith. In salvation, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. In the spiritual life after salvation, the object of faith is in what God has revealed through His written word. The Scriptures are the thinking of Christ set down in writing. The Bible is the source for all that is known about God and about that which God has communicated to man.

One can not pick and choose what they wish from the Bible and discard the rest. The word of God which speaks of God and tells us that Jesus Christ is God, and that tells us of heaven, and of eternal life for those who believe in Christ, and that tells us of angels, and which tells us that God desires that all men be saved, is the very same word of God which tells us beyond any shadow of a doubt of the reality of eternal condemnation in the lake of fire for those who reject Christ. Jesus Himself during His first incarnation of earth, spoke plainly concerning the matter.

For a person to choose to believe what the Bible says concerning Jesus Christ because it is good news, but to reject what Jesus Himself said concerning the lake of fire, and which has been recorded in the word of God, because it makes them uncomfortable, is subjective emotionalism in preference to stated Scripture.

For a person to believe that which makes them feel good, and yet to reject from the very same source that which makes them uneasy is not the thinking of a reasonable and objective person.

As stated previously, this kind of person will not be reasoned with. To believe a lie, one must first reject the truth.
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:40 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,726,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Reality is that which is revealed by the word of God.

2 Cor 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.

Faith in itself is meaningless. The merit is in the object of faith. In salvation, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. In the spiritual life after salvation, the object of faith is in what God has revealed through His written word. The Scriptures are the thinking of Christ set down in writing. The Bible is the source for all that is known about God and about that which God has communicated to man.

One can not pick and choose what they wish from the Bible and discard the rest. The word of God which speaks of God and tells us that Jesus Christ is God, and that tells us of heaven, and of eternal life for those who believe in Christ, and that tells us of angels, and which tells us that God desires that all men be saved, is the very same word of God which tells us beyond any shadow of a doubt of the reality of eternal condemnation in the lake of fire for those who reject Christ. Jesus Himself during His first incarnation of earth, spoke plainly concerning the matter.

For a person to choose to believe what the Bible says concerning Jesus Christ because it is good news, but to reject what Jesus Himself said concerning the lake of fire, and which has been recorded in the word of God, because it makes them uncomfortable, is subjective emotionalism in preference to stated Scripture.

For a person to believe that which makes them feel good, and yet to reject from the very same source that which makes them uneasy is not the thinking of a reasonable and objective person.

As stated previously, this kind of person will not be reasoned with. To believe a lie, one must first reject the truth.
You still don't understand the definition of "reality."

Based on what God has revealed to my heart, soul, and mind, your interpretations of many scriptures are wrong, and your opinion of God's character is wrong. I could say that "reality" is that God is a consuming fire and the lake of fire is symbolic. You could say that "reality" is that God has devised a plan to burn most of the people He created in fire for eternity.

Neither of us can prove it's "reality" because reality is something that exists independently of ideas concerning it. You could tell me to refer back to post #whatever to read again, "Reality is that which is revealed by the word of God." I could then post and say, "Yes. I know. The reality the word of God has revealed is that the lake of fire is symbolic, God is a consuming fire, He will baptize with fire, and everyone will be salted with fire. That is the lake of fire." We could go back and forth forever because we have "ideas concerning it."

On the other hand, a circle is round and it would be pointless for us to even discuss that because it's reality. This is the difference between reality and someone's interpretation of scriptures.
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Old 05-16-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. It is the from the original lanquages of the Bible that we know of the existence of the lake of fire. Translations, whether good or bad, have nothing to do with it. This is a typical tactic of the universalist for the purpose of discrediting the Bible's teachings on hell.

And you do a disservice to the many fine theologians and Greek and Hebrew scholars who are quite expert in their knowledge of the original lanquages. For instance, just to name one, Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded and was president of Dallas Theological Seminary and was an expert in Greek. There are many many experts in the original lanquages who will tell you that eternal punishment in the lake of fire is Biblical.

The word of God is crystal clear in its teachings of hell. Or lake of fire if you prefer. Disputes over the name people choose to call it by have no bearing on the reality of its existence.



Actually, I said that the poster was mistaken in saying that no one knows that God exists. Those who have believed in Christ for salvation certainly know that God exists. However, everyone knows in their heart that God exists, for the very heavens declare the glory of God. Psalms 19:1-6.

Okay there are many valid historians and theologins who disagree with the arguments by Chafer and the like. So that goes both ways.

Furthermore it is apparant by your response that you haven't studied this yourself. Good and bad translations have EVERYTHING to do with it. There are many experts, who I am not going to look up again right now but I have read, who heartily dispute the way the original words in Greek and Hebrew were translated when there were other words in regular use that denoted eternity. It is not a tactic, it is the truth.

You refer to the lake of fire and hell interchangably when in fact that are 2 seperate things. I do not dispute that some sort of hell exists but I disagree with you on it's content and purpose. Did you know that the "fire" used in hell is God's holy fire? The same as His annointing? And that death and hell will be thrown INTO the lake of fire, which can be literally translated as "a harbor or haven of divine purification"?
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Old 05-16-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Okay there are many valid historians and theologins who disagree with the arguments by Chafer and the like. So that goes both ways.

Furthermore it is apparant by your response that you haven't studied this yourself. Good and bad translations have EVERYTHING to do with it. There are many experts, who I am not going to look up again right now but I have read, who heartily dispute the way the original words in Greek and Hebrew were translated when there were other words in regular use that denoted eternity. It is not a tactic, it is the truth.

You refer to the lake of fire and hell interchangably when in fact that are 2 seperate things. I do not dispute that some sort of hell exists but I disagree with you on it's content and purpose. Did you know that the "fire" used in hell is God's holy fire? The same as His annointing? And that death and hell will be thrown INTO the lake of fire, which can be literally translated as "a harbor or haven of divine purification"?
Very good post and very good points, DTPO.
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Old 05-16-2010, 10:49 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You still don't understand the definition of "reality."

Based on what God has revealed to my heart, soul, and mind, your interpretations of many scriptures are wrong, and your opinion of God's character is wrong. I could say that "reality" is that God is a consuming fire and the lake of fire is symbolic. You could say that "reality" is that God has devised a plan to burn most of the people He created in fire for eternity.

Neither of us can prove it's "reality" because reality is something that exists independently of ideas concerning it. You could tell me to refer back to post #whatever to read again, "Reality is that which is revealed by the word of God." I could then post and say, "Yes. I know. The reality the word of God has revealed is that the lake of fire is symbolic, God is a consuming fire, He will baptize with fire, and everyone will be salted with fire. That is the lake of fire." We could go back and forth forever because we have "ideas concerning it."

On the other hand, a circle is round and it would be pointless for us to even discuss that because it's reality. This is the difference between reality and someone's interpretation of scriptures.

God does not reveal anything that is contrary to what is revealed in His written word. It is not God you are listenig to. It is Satan. You have rejected the truth and given yourself over to the lie.

The word of God proves that Hell is a reality. There's nothing symbolic about something that is repeated so many times in so many different ways. Here you go...

Revelation 20:11-15; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Matthew 25:41,46; Matthew 10:28 and other passages sound the warning loud and clear.


The baptism of fire is the throwing off of the earth, those Tribulational survivors who are unbelievers into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41.
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Old 05-16-2010, 10:57 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Okay there are many valid historians and theologins who disagree with the arguments by Chafer and the like. So that goes both ways.

Furthermore it is apparant by your response that you haven't studied this yourself. Good and bad translations have EVERYTHING to do with it. There are many experts, who I am not going to look up again right now but I have read, who heartily dispute the way the original words in Greek and Hebrew were translated when there were other words in regular use that denoted eternity. It is not a tactic, it is the truth.

You refer to the lake of fire and hell interchangably when in fact that are 2 seperate things. I do not dispute that some sort of hell exists but I disagree with you on it's content and purpose. Did you know that the "fire" used in hell is God's holy fire? The same as His annointing? And that death and hell will be thrown INTO the lake of fire, which can be literally translated as "a harbor or haven of divine purification"?
Translations don't enter into it. It is from the original languages that the existence of hell is known.

The lake of fire and hell are indeed the same. Hell does not refer to Hades though many mistakenly think that it does. Hell is properly the lake of fire.

Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14.

Fire refers to judgment. The ultimate judgment is the eternal fire for those who die without Christ. It is the very holiness of God that demands eternal punishment for those who refuse His graceous offer of salvation.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-16-2010 at 11:06 AM..
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:17 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,726,344 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is not God you are listenig to. It is Satan. You have rejected the truth and given yourself over to the lie.
Speak for yourself. I'm not mean enough to say you are listening to Satan, but you are listening to a bunch of men whose heart you don't even know. Try listening to the heart of God.
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