U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:38 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I agree with you Mike. Universalists believe God has revealed His true plan and we are deceived by Satan. Someone is wrong in this and I'll stick with God's Word! If they aren't following God, how can they know Him? Wouldn't they, when shown their error, come back to Him and yet they don't, which to me means, they never knew Him.
Yes. I find it amazing that when presented with the overwheming amount of information presented in the Scriptures concerning that which awaits the unbeliever, that anyone can not understand it. But that's what being deceived is all about. And actually, one must first reject the truth before he believes the lie. Hell is an unpleasant thought. And many people choose to reject the reality of it and construct their own beliefs. People have a marked ability to ignore the facts and build a personalized belief system which makes them feel good.

Being a Universalist doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't saved. It depends on if they ever had the good sense to understand the issue involved in salvation before being deceived into the universalist belief system. It is possible to be saved through faith in Christ but then reject the post-salvation truths of the Bible and veer off into all sorts of unscriptural beliefs. Such a person is saved and cannot lose his salvation ( I think you said you don't believe in eternal security, but that's a different issue), but that person may very well remain mired in cosmic doctrines and never come to know God this side of death. To clarify, a new believer doesn't know God beyond that which was necessary to know in order to make a decision to place his faith in Christ. But after salvation, there is an entire realm of doctrine that God expects the believer to learn. Most believers never learn these things and remain spiritual infants all of their Christian lives.

And of course, there are those who merely profess to be Christians, but were never saved, and will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of such people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:43 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
Stargazzer Part 2

I guess you would condemn the likes of Helen Keller and those inadequate of understanding concept of hell......To Hell Itself
Do you see how illogical this is ? Try to address entirety of post and retract the ridiculous judge displacement
By your own admission, you don't believe in hell. Therefore you reject what the Bible says about the reality of hell and you are therefore in contradiction of the scriptures. That is all I have said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:45 AM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,954 times
Reputation: 478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes. I find it amazing that when presented with the overwheming amount of information presented in the Scriptures concerning that which awaits the unbeliever, that anyone can not understand it. But that's what being deceived is all about. And actually, one must first reject the truth before he believes the lie. Hell is an unpleasant thought. And many people choose to reject the reality of it and construct their own beliefs. People have a marked ability to ignore the facts and build a personalized belief system which makes them feel good.

Being a Universalist doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't saved. It depends on if they ever had the good sense to understand the issue involved in salvation before being deceived into the universalist belief system. It is possible to be saved through faith in Christ but then reject the post-salvation truths of the Bible and veer off into all sorts of unscriptural beliefs. Such a person is saved and cannot lose his salvation ( I think you said you don't believe in eternal security, but that's a different issue), but that person may very well remain mired in cosmic doctrines and never come to know God this side of death. To clarify, a new believer doesn't know God beyond that which was necessary to know in order to make a decision to place his faith in Christ. But after salvation, there is an entire realm of doctrine that God expects the believer to learn. Most believers never learn these things and remain spiritual infants all of their Christian lives.

And of course, there are those who merely profess to be Christians, but were never saved, and will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of such people.
So avoiding I see...cannot answer post. Mike wheres the light is it
afraid of truth. You cannot find. What about Helen ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:56 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
So avoiding I see...cannot answer post. Mike wheres the light is it
afraid of truth. You cannot find. What about Helen ?
Anyone who dies without believing in Christ for salvation is condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity. It doesn't matter how good a life they lived. If a person dies without accepting Christ as Savior, they are condemned, not on the basis of sin which has already been paid for, but rather they are condemned on the basis of their works as per Revelation 20:11-15.

As for you personally, if you don't believe in Christ and if you die without believing in Christ, then you are going to spend eternity in hell. If you have, in understanding the issue, placed your faith in Christ for salvation, then you are saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:57 AM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,954 times
Reputation: 478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
By your own admission, you don't believe in hell. Therefore you reject what the Bible says about the reality of hell and you are therefore in contradiction of the scriptures. That is all I have said.
The reality of hell is suggested in scripture and you and others seem to want to "translate" that into a morally demanding condition of belief in order to achieve salvation.
I repeat , no where is it said that failing to believe in hell regardless of a life of strict attention to virtue outlined in scripture will condemn to hell.
As I say what about those who do not have the faculty to comprehend a hell like Helen Keller....are those going to hell ? of course not.
If a person NEEDS to believe in hell then he or she will have no trouble
believing there is a hell. No one knows there is a hell just as no one "knows" there is a God. We are asked to have ...what Mike....FAITH
Do you really want to have "Faith" in the existance of Hell ?
Faith is all we have in the movement to actualize a God, as no one "knows" God exists. That is what Faith is.
Believe, as if you "know" you will loose what you know in the journey through life ,as life will display the ignorance in reality. Scripture knows this and installs faith ordained by God himself actualizing the gift of free will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
Reputation: 437
What I find interesting is the link that Mike555 gave me for CARM shows all the verses that use "forever and ever" from the New Testament, but not the Old Testament (and, from the studying I have been doing, I can even see the flaws in CARM's use of the New Testament verses.)

If you have noticed, the Old Testament also uses "forever and ever," but since we have the NEW Testament, we now know that those "forever and evers" did come to an end, which of course we all know the Jews didn't believe would happen!!! THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES, THE CHOSEN, THE ELECT!

Our New Testament "forever and evers" are also going to come to an end.

What I am interested in is the END of ALL THINGS, or THE END of THE AGES.

There are a couple of things I do know: God is reconciling EVERYTHING in heaven and earth to Himself, EVERYTHING will be singing His praises in the end, and death (second death also) will be NO MORE!

How does this happen????? How does the puzzle fit together?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 02:11 AM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,954 times
Reputation: 478
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
What I find interesting is the link that Mike555 gave me for CARM shows all the verses that use "forever and ever" from the New Testament, but not the Old Testament (and, from the studying I have been doing, I can even see the flaws in CARM's use of the New Testament verses.)

If you have noticed, the Old Testament also uses "forever and ever," but since we have the NEW Testament, we now know that those "forever and evers" did come to an end, which of course we all know the Jews didn't believe would happen!!! THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES, THE CHOSEN, THE ELECT!

Our New Testament "forever and evers" are also going to come to an end.

What I am interested in is the END of ALL THINGS, or THE END of THE AGES.

There are a couple of things I do know: God is reconciling EVERYTHING in heaven and earth to Himself, EVERYTHING will be singing His praises in the end, and death (second death also) will be NO MORE!

How does this happen????? How does the puzzle fit together?
You cannot put limitations on creation. Creation will have thousands of years to manifest its plan. Thousands. Spirituality is a seed, seeds grow.

We are a gathering in time. The solar keeper our sun will warm the planet
for a great many years as the good God has intended. Avoidance of this truth is pointless.

Everything is always singing his praises , yesterday , today, and tomorrow. All must be, as it is .
It is a flower that has no preference in time, but shows its colors at every moment.

See your time in his praises and all your moments will blossom with color
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 02:34 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer View Post
The reality of hell is suggested in scripture and you and others seem to want to "translate" that into a morally demanding condition of belief in order to achieve salvation.
I repeat , no where is it said that failing to believe in hell regardless of a life of strict attention to virtue outlined in scripture will condemn to hell.
As I say what about those who do not have the faculty to comprehend a hell like Helen Keller....are those going to hell ? of course not.
If a person NEEDS to believe in hell then he or she will have no trouble
believing there is a hell. No one knows there is a hell just as no one "knows" there is a God. We are asked to have ...what Mike....FAITH
Do you really want to have "Faith" in the existance of Hell ?
Faith is all we have in the movement to actualize a God, as no one "knows" God exists. That is what Faith is.
Believe, as if you "know" you will loose what you know in the journey through life ,as life will display the ignorance in reality. Scripture knows this and installs faith ordained by God himself actualizing the gift of free will.
You seem unable to understand the issue. The issue is that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

However, if a person doesn't believe in the lake of fire, then they don't understand the issue with regard to what salvation saves them from. It means also that they are calling God a liar. The Bible is crystal clear in its message that hell exists and is the eternal destination for those who die without Christ.

You are also quite mistaken in saying that no one knows there is a God or a hell. The Scriptures declare the existence of God and the fingerprints of God are all over the Scriptures. And Jesus Christ who Himself is God manifested Himself in the flesh and came into the world to pay the penalty for sin.

I will say to you one more time. If you die without believing in Christ for salvation you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. That is the truth of the matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 03:04 AM
 
3,448 posts, read 2,582,954 times
Reputation: 478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You seem unable to understand the issue. The issue is that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

However, if a person doesn't believe in the lake of fire, then they don't understand the issue with regard to what salvation saves them from. It means also that they are calling God a liar. The Bible is crystal clear in its message that hell exists and is the eternal destination for those who die without Christ.

You are also quite mistaken in saying that no one knows there is a God or a hell. The Scriptures declare the existence of God and the fingerprints of God are all over the Scriptures. And Jesus Christ who Himself is God manifested Himself in the flesh and came into the world to pay the penalty for sin.

I will say to you one more time. If you die without believing in Christ for salvation you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. That is the truth of the matter.
This is so ridiculous. So philosophy put forward is if a human being is not aware of Christ , he will not be saved.
That is so easy to refute.
What about Mose's ? These comments are not comments, simply choice recordings of scripture.
I see where your coming from and I don't bother with this type of ......
interpretation. It is your interpretation. Out of interest, just how much of "Gods Humanity" is God tossing into hell.
Your like an employee asking his employer to dislike employees that
"he has hired"
Employers don't like that and either would God.
You can't go through life pulling out words and att your interpretations.
Its indicative of insecurity in trying to find something special in yourself. Theres nothing special in dumping on creation. Thats what we have in the ...."interpetation submitted"
So, ALL born prior to Christ are condemned to hell.
That is a Nazi like need for self supremacy. Good luck, I could go through a few life examples of others in great tribulation over experience vrs faith to expose the hatred that is within these ideology's but I don't have time and simply am passing by. Also, you have time in front of you to unvail truth. I don't believe in interupting that and try to see that.....
If you convince yourself that you "know" God exists rather than believe God exists exciting faith in your spiritual existance , faith is lost.
When faith is required , to believe in God you won't know where to find it as you only "know" God exists.
This is how many, loose their faith, as it was never there. Be warned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 03:08 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
What I find interesting is the link that Mike555 gave me for CARM shows all the verses that use "forever and ever" from the New Testament, but not the Old Testament (and, from the studying I have been doing, I can even see the flaws in CARM's use of the New Testament verses.)

If you have noticed, the Old Testament also uses "forever and ever," but since we have the NEW Testament, we now know that those "forever and evers" did come to an end, which of course we all know the Jews didn't believe would happen!!! THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES, THE CHOSEN, THE ELECT!

Our New Testament "forever and evers" are also going to come to an end.

What I am interested in is the END of ALL THINGS, or THE END of THE AGES.

There are a couple of things I do know: God is reconciling EVERYTHING in heaven and earth to Himself, EVERYTHING will be singing His praises in the end, and death (second death also) will be NO MORE!

How does this happen????? How does the puzzle fit together?
To the contrary. God's promises to Israel are eternal and will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ. The Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and New Covenant to Israel are eternal in nature. Without a proper understanding of dispensations it is impossible to rightly divide the word of truth.

What is the Abrahamic Covenant?

What is the Palestinian Covenant?

What is the Davidic covenant?

Israel's New Covenant - Not for the Church!

Those things which are eternal do not come to an end.

The lake of fire which is the second death does not come to an end. It is eternal. Satan isn't even thrown into the lake of fire to begin his eternal confinement until after the Millennium which is the last dispensation in human history.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top