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Old 05-14-2010, 04:15 AM
 
Location: US
26,479 posts, read 14,070,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

Belief in universal salvation is almost as old as Christianity itself and may be associated with early Gnostic teachers. The first clearly universalist writings, however, date from the Greek church fathers, most notably Clement of Alexandria, his student Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. Universalism was taught in the School that Origen presided over at Alexandria in the extreme form that all fallen beings, not excluding the Devil and his angels, who do not repent in this world, shall pass through prolonged chastisement in the world to come. In the end, through these sufferings and the instruction of superior spirits, they will undergo a change and be brought to bliss. Origen's views were strongly opposed by Augustine of Hippo and were condemned by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 543). At the Reformation the sect known as Anabaptists adopted this view as regards both men and devils, and John Calvin wrote a tract condemning it.

This doctrine is congenial to human nature. Most unbelievers think that when someone dies they go to heaven. What do people usually say when they lose a loved one? "We know they're in a better place now." This doctrine goes back to what the serpent had to say to our first parents: "Ye shall not surely die." God says that sin leads to death, but we don't want to believe that, we'd rather believe the serpent.

Universalists all quote Scripture texts in support of their views, and by the manipulation of texts removed from their context, they make out a plausible case for the positions they hold. There are many verses that use "all" and "world" in relation to redemption. When looking at these verses, we must keep in mind the primary rule of hermeneutics, the "analogy of faith" - the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.

http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/colossians/1_20 (broken link).

David Curtis refutes many verses that UR uses to support their view. More at link.
I believe a proper understanding of the scriptures and of God hinges on a proper understanding of Romans and Pauls arguement therein...Paul therein builds an arguement for predestination and of God's Sovreign Will...To understand the character of God is to understand Romans...this is why i am against verse memorization, for it is impossible to grasp a books concept when one is picking a verse here and a verse there arbitrarily...Paul, through Romans, lays out a doctrine, however, therein one is also able to build other doctrines around verses taken out of context...this is therefore faulty logic and reasoning...
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:22 AM
 
Location: US
26,479 posts, read 14,070,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Wow, this is so clear to me now.

Natural man hates his enemies. He wants to go to war with them, put them through pain, and murder them. Eternal torment says man's enemies will be in pain forever - and a man will either forget about or not care about his enemies forever.

Jesus says to love your enemies. Bless those that curse you and be kind to those that hurt you so that you can be like God above. Jesus died for his enemies while they still hated Him. Universal salvation says Jesus will save and reconcile his enemies - they will no longer be enemies but will be reconciled back to God.

Which is the doctrine of man and which is the doctrine of God?
The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus...why would the Rich man want Lazarus to go back and speak to his brothers if he knew he and his brothers were going to end up in bliss eventually?...It would be obvious that he would want himself and his brothers to be cleansed in order to enter heaven so this would be a good thing...
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:29 AM
 
Location: US
26,479 posts, read 14,070,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yes, we are supposed to be just like Him, as He was just like His Father.

They would know us (true followers of Christ) by our LOVE for one another. John 13:35

NOT "they will know us by our wars, division, coldness, bombs, and little verses imprinted on our guns that kill them." Can't find that verse in the Bible.
When it says our love for one another it is speaking in the context believers...not the whole of manknd...if we as believers love one another then we are an example to the non-believer...this is what the verse means...
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,132,144 times
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Quote:
When it says our love for one another it is speaking in the context believers...not the whole of manknd...if we as believers love one another then we are an example to the non-believer...this is what the verse means...
I don't agree. "If you love only those who love you, what reward have ye? Do not sinners the same?"

Personally, I think many Christians reject UR because it implys that they are no better than other sinners. It seems to be a pride thing: "I'm in, you're out." Many people, when you tell them that all will go to heaven, reply, "well if that's true, I might as well keep on sinning!" That's the "Christian" heart speaking!

Why a Christian would not rejoice in hearing that ALL sinners will be taken into the spiritual enjoyment of God, is beyond me...

Blessings,
Brian
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,394,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
When it says our love for one another it is speaking in the context believers...not the whole of manknd...if we as believers love one another then we are an example to the non-believer...this is what the verse means...
I understand very well what that verse is saying.

But, whatever happened to Jesus' commandments? LOVE your ENEMIES!! Do GOOD to those that persecute you and hate you! TURN the other cheek!

When Peter and the other disciples showed ANY signs of violence, such as calling fire down on people or cutting off ears and what-have-you, Jesus got upset. He said they didn't understand. He did not tell them to PHYSICALLY fight anyone! They were eventually chased and martyred. They NEVER chased and martyred others for going against the truth. Well, except for Saul before he became Paul; and of course we all know before he became Paul, he was a zealot who thought he understood God and his ways.

For God so LOVED the WORLD!

It's kind of hard for the world to hear the GOOD NEWS when we drop bombs on them, and I don't think they can hear us very well over the gunfire.

Propping up corrupt politicians and regimes isn't such a good idea either.

And about that little bump in the road some years back, burning people at the stake. Just a wee bit nasty. Christ-like? Nah.

The hypocrisy and forked tongue of "Christianity" is quite disgusting. I'm wondering if it's time is about up.....

Last edited by herefornow; 05-14-2010 at 05:32 AM..
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,731 posts, read 32,184,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
He's already saved everyone so how is Jesus necessary anymore?
That is the obvious question they fail to ask themselves. If everyone is already saved, they might as well return to their lustful lifestyles.
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,132,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That is the obvious question they fail to ask themselves. If everyone is already saved, they might as well return to their lustful lifestyles.
A true Christian doesn't WANT to go back to sinning, even if it's "free!" Read Romans 6!

Perhaps the only difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is that one knows the joy of Life, the other not yet!

But for a Christian to say, "I might as well sin.." is absurd. Haven't they tasted of the goodness of God??

Blessings,
Brian
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:52 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,429,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That is the obvious question they fail to ask themselves. If everyone is already saved, they might as well return to their lustful lifestyles.

Finn, since you are saved, you might as well return to your lustful lifestyle.

Does that make sense to you?
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,731 posts, read 32,184,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
That's laughable to me that you would think God only knit together a few. I understand why you might choose to believe this because it's unthinkable that a loving God would knit someone together in their mother's womb, "choose," a few to love, and throw away the rest to burn forever in torment. I don't knit, but I cross-stitch and I've yet to through any into the fire. Surely God loves people more than I like colorful cloth pictures.
He knit together six million Jews and sent them to the gas chambers. But then again, the Bible prophesied what was going to happen to the Jews due to their unbelief and rejection of Christ. It also makes clear what happens to unbelievers after their physical deaths. It is what it is. This is God's way. Your denial of the truth won't make it go away.

You think you can figure God out 100%? You say things like "loving God would never do something like that". You insult God by even suggesting you can figure him out. You will never fully understand him, and you look silly pretending to fully understand him.

Why does loving God knit together anyone and make them suffer pain, poverty, hunger, disease and death here on earth? Why not just knit them into spirits and take them to heaven? Or why not turn earth into a paradise without pain and death? Christ already paid the price, right? Isn't that what you keep saying? It's a done deal. I know the answer to the question, but it wouldn't' make any sense if I thought like you.
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Old 05-14-2010, 07:00 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,429,525 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
A true Christian doesn't WANT to go back to sinning, even if it's "free!" Read Romans 6!

Perhaps the only difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is that one knows the joy of Life, the other not yet!

But for a Christian to say, "I might as well sin.." is absurd. Haven't they tasted of the goodness of God??

Blessings,
Brian
Exactly Brian! If one wants to continue in lustful sin, then they aren't saved yet, because it is the sin and the sinning we are saved from.

Salvation is a process. God is working within us.

We are saved (past tense) in the sense that Christ did it all on the cross.

We will be saved (future tense) in the sense that eventually we won't want to sin, won't ever sin again, and will be resurrected immortal.
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