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Old 05-15-2010, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The Spirit does teach me, even from the first moment i read the bible after being saved and discovered that Jesus was God in the flesh...never saw that before...with scripture, you either believe it or you don't...
Yes, John 1:1

In the beginning was the WORD (logos) and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD!

My mom went through some VERY rough times before she was saved. She became a KJV only, Independent Baptist kind of person after her conversion. She was so die-hard that even the INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH had a problem with her and she had to leave!!!!! She did not have any understanding of the original languages and she did not understand too much about the history of Christianity, but she did start studying a little and started coming across much information that would blow the socks off of it. Unfortunately, she left much of the truth altogether; kinda threw the baby out with the bathwater, which is what happens when you start seeing through all the scheming and scamming of religion.

My dad, on the other hand, began studying the Greek and Hebrew and started putting 2 and 2 together. He is a VERY intelligent man and he does not like to be made a fool of. He was the one that told me to start studying UR. I thought he was a fool. I know what I had been taught. I could see the word "hell" right there in my Bible. BOY, was I so wrong.

I am a VERY stubborn person; it has taken me YEARS to say that. I don't think that most of humanity tends to be very humble, either. And when pastors and teachers preach something day in and day out, and have many followers, and need the income, they are bound to keep their mouths shut even if the Holy Spirit were to bring something to their attention. They quench it and keep on going, shouting and pounding the podiums. I believe Hitler used many sermon-like speeches in his talks (I can't discern between some of his speeches and the stuff I heard growing up)

Anyway, my mom recently died, but before she did, she had some interesting things to say. VERY INTERESTING! It might have been her impending death that started to soften her, I don't know. The last time I talked to her, a couple of months before she died, I asked her what she believed. We had been talking about hell and UR and such and she finally said, "You know, one of those Evangelical preachers that I used to listen to didn't believe in hell either, at least not the traditional hell. I was SHOCKED! (You would have to know her to understand why) She NEVER said she was wrong about something and would NEVER agree with anybody. She also started talking about the Hippy People from the 60s!!!! In a good way!!! And she wasn't a fan of them!

She actually started to listen to me.........

I really wish that people would truly start thinking about who God is and what His character is about, and rethink what you have been TOLD the scriptures say. Remember, NONE of it was written in English, and the Latin Church had it's pagan ways with it, also.

Keep following the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness.

Anyway, I am not trying to offend you, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to let you know that I see where you are coming from.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:23 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,201 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKC
The article completely falters on "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". "Hated" does not mean that God does not care to save Esau. It refers to what God does. God's wrath abides on all vessels of dishonor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Which means?
It means the article is wrong to take "hated" as meaning
1. God forever hates one fixed subset of humanity and does not care to save them
2. God forever loves another fixed subset of humanity and cares to save only them

The gave two counter-examples to the notion that the “hated” are forever-hated.
1. God hated the beloved of His soul. Nevertheless God stated that He intended to have compassion on them at a later time.
2. The Psalm I quoted says God hates the wicked. Romans plainly teaches that every man is has been inherently and actively wicked. So God hated them. Yet some of those He hated He has saved.

Quote:
They, His House, is Israel, not the whole entire human race.
Doesn't matter, it is still an example of God having compassion ones that He “hated”. It also helps give some nuance to the scriptural meaning of "hated".
Quote:
And it certainly doesn't tie in with your opening statement.
Sure it does. It was my second example of God having compassion on people whom He “hated”
Quote:
And? This sounds alot like "wordproofing"......
Not at all. The gist of this Psalm is that God is against the wicked and for the righteous. In fact that is the gist of a whole lot of scripture.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


This passage describes every man as the epitome of wickedness (for those in Christ, this is prior to God writing His law on our hearts)

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.


The real wordproofing is the article taking the scriptural word "hateth" and applying all the English nuances to it.

Quote:
Verse 30 That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Quote:
Hos 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her (Israel) children; for they (Israel) [be] the children of whoredoms.
Hos 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Who is he speaking of here? Gentiles. Notice that this terminology comes straight from Genesis. Does God really make a covenant with birds, beasts and creeping things? Or, does He make His covenant with people? Hosea uses the language of Genesis to describe the restoration that we eventually see in Revelation. Notice that the animals, birds and creeping things are all related to people. Jesus also makes this same comparison when He makes His disciples “fishers of men.” He is the Good Shepherd that tends His “sheep”, a clean animal, the lamb will lie with the wolf.
Yes, it’s talking about people. No it is not talking specifically about God saving some physical Gentiles. It is about God saving some spiritual Gentiles who happen to be physical Jews. God is not just talking to a collective entity, God is talking to and about individuals.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


1. God is talking to physical Jews, not physical Gentiles

Hosea 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband:


2. These physical Jews are spiritual Gentiles (uncircumcised heart)

let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts


3. God has no mercy on them (God “hateth” the wicked)

Hosea 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst. 4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms

...I will hedge up thy way with thorns,
...Now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers
...None shall deliver her out of mine hand.
...I will destroy her vines and her fig trees
...I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them
...I will also cause all her mirth to cease


4. God intends to bring them to repentance.

...then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
...ttherefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her


5. God circumcises their uncircumcised hearts. God takes out the stony heart and gives them a heart of flesh. Not because of anything good they had done (they hadn’t done anything good) but because God is God. He has no mercy upon whom He choses (as He did on them) and He has mercy upon whom He choses (as He did on them).

And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.


6. God was having mercy upon those whom He had “no mercy”.

And I have pitied Lo-Ruhamah,
Lo-Ruhamah: “I add no more to pity the house of Israel, for I do utterly take them away”


God is taking spiritual Gentiles (beasts of the field, fowls of the air etc) judging them, taking the name of Baal out of their mouth, circumcising their hearts, and then having mercy upon them. Paul applies Hosea to both Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

So I disagree that Hosea is specifically about God saving physical Gentiles, although since it is about God converting spiritual Gentiles into spiritual Jews, then it certianly includes the salvation of Gentiles.

Quote:
Again, these are all pointing towards Gentiles. You can't generalize this to be the entire world, because the scripture nevers considers the whole world to be elected into the faith. Only that the sins have been paid for, and can only be propitated upon inner circumcision and confession.
My point was not to generalize it to the whole world. My point was to show that in Hosea 2 the same group of people are
1. not my people and later my people
2. not beloved and later beloved
3. no mercy and later mercy

In contrast the article believes humanity is divided into two groups
1. beloved objects of mercy
2. hated objects of no mercy

Quote:
So?
So since a man of God, speaking by the Spirit of God and by faith, gave Esau a hopeful blessing concerning things to come, I am hopeful for Esau concerning things to come. In contrast, the article dooms Esau and all who are similarly "hated" of God.

Quote:
The article doesn't promote limited atonement, but what it does promote is limited election, and that, is scripturally sound. Not everyone is chosen to be a new creation...simple as that. Agreed. Why would they need to know since their sins were never paid for
The article flat-out says
1. God does not love everyone
2. Christ did not die for everyone
3. the atonement was limited
4. Christ died with the intention of saving His elect.

Do you disagree with points #2 and #3?

Quote:
This verse is speaking of JEWS not believing. Watch this: ....Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem (Under Christ, Jew and Gentile, Jerusalem, a separate people).......Depart ye,(Christ) depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean [thing]; go ye out of the midst of her (Israel); be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. ...yet we (Israel) did esteem him (Christ) stricken...

Again, it doesn’t affect my point. If these Jews are being criticized for not believing the report, then they were supposed to believe the report that God placed their sins on Christ. But this is moot since you don't believe in limited atonement.

Quote:
Most certainly the entire world is not Israel, Jerusalem, or Mt. Zion, or is it according to UR?
I can only answer for myself. "Israel" does not always mean the same thing in scripture. Sometimes it refers to physical Israel and other times to spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

i.e. Not all of physical Israel are in Christ. But as far as spiritual Israel: Spiritual Israel = Seed of Abraham = Children of God = Those born again of Christ’s Spirit though faith by God's grace and mercy. No one else.

Only if every man who dies in Adam is made alive in Christ will every physical Jew and Gentile be Israel.
Only if every man who goes down to the dust, remembers and returns to the Lord will the whole world be Israel.
Only if all of the crooked are made straight and all flesh sees the salvation of God, will all the world be Israel.
Only if God has mercy upon all whom He locked up in their own unbelief [which refers to "no mercy"] will all the world be Israel.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-15-2010 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
Reputation: 420
TKC,

I only used certain excerpts from your post to address your errors. The others have little use for the arguement, as it lay in these few statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Yes, it’s talking about people. No it is not talking specifically about God saving some physical Gentiles. It is about God saving some spiritual Gentiles who happen to be physical Jews. God is not just talking to a collective entity, God is talking to and about individuals.
I am going to stop you right here, and this is the only area of the post I am going to address. I have seen this arguement before, that Jews are really spritual Gentiles. It is false.

Read carefully, the beast of the field ARE NOT Israel:

And in that day will I make a covenant for them (Israel) with the beasts (Gentiles) of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Now read again parenthesis mine:

Isa 11:6 The wolf (unclean animal) also shall dwell with the lamb (clean animal), and the leopard (unlcean) shall lie down with the kid (Christ); and the calf (clean) and the young lion (unlcean) and the fatling (sacrifice)together; and a little child (Christ) shall lead them.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD


Quote:
My point was not to generalize it to the whole world. My point was to show that in Hosea 2 the same group of people are
Quote:
1. not my people and later my people
2. not beloved and later beloved
3. no mercy and later mercy
Although you eisegetically interpreted it this way, I do agree with you on your conclusion even though you are in error on how you got there.

Quote:
The article flat-out says
Quote:
1. God does not love everyone
2. Christ did not die for everyone
3. the atonement was limited
4. Christ died with the intention of saving His elect.

Do you disagree with points #2 and #3?
I agree with both of them, in the context of Salvific propitation is only in effect for those that claim Christ's salvific effort. That is the message of scripture. Wrath abides in the unbeliever, or do you disagree with that?.... so in respect to the authority of the scripture, God does not love those that deny Him, and Christ's death has no purpose for the wicked if they continue onto their reprobate ways, God's mercy and love will flow freely onto them if they accept the sacrifice. That is the purpose of the Gospel, something I think has been lost in UR. In UR, there is no need to exhortation and proclamation, for everyone is already saved. Everyone is not saved. The "offering of salvation" is in effect, but one must accept that offer for it to be expiated.

The doctrine of atonement includes both dimensions: propitation - averting the wrath of God - and expiation - taking away or covering over human guilt. A sacrifice was necessary to satisfy the demands of His law, but God Himself provided the sacrfice out of His incomparable love for His people that kept His law circumcised in their hearts, those that served Him well, and especially, most specifically, the original promise He had given Abraham, and that redemption would sprout from His seed, and through His seed, many would be blessed.

Salvation is a free gift appropiated through faith - Eph 2:8-9; Rom 3:28: Rom 10:9. No individual merits salvation by fulfillment of God's law - Rom 3:20 ....Saving faith is, however, obediant faith - Rom 1:5; 16:26; 1 Pet 1:2 - Assurance of salvation is grounded in confidence that God is able to finish the good work begun in us personally (Phil 1:6) that God who sacrificed His Son for sinners - Rom 8:32 - and that nothing can separate us from God's love in Christ - Rom 8:35-39 - Confidence in God's ability to keep those who have entrusted their lives to Christ is not, however an excuse for any believer inactivity or moral failure - Rom 6:12-13; Eph 2:10. God's SAVING WORK involves conviction of sin - John 16:8 - repentance from sin to God - Luke 15:7,10; 2 Cor 7:10 - faith commitment to Christ - John 3:16, 36 - confession of Christ as Lord and Savior - Acts 2:21: Rom 10:9-10 - Scripture describes this act as a NEW BIRTH - John 3:3; Titus 3:5 - new creation - 2 Cor 5:17 - adoption - Rom 8:15; Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:5 - empowerment to be God's children - John 1:12 - that status of the saints - 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1 - This initial work in the believer's life is often termed justification. Justification also embraces God's final judgement, which according to the article, and the entire website, is a fulfilled event.

However, in light of my orthodox futurist brothers on this board, regardless of the timing of His coming and consummation of justification FOR THE BELIEVER AND SAINT, the salvific atonement for mankind only is effective in the believer, and that, along with the deity of Christ, is the core and fundamental foundation for the Christain faith.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:17 PM
 
Location: US
26,343 posts, read 13,966,957 times
Reputation: 1599
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yes, John 1:1

In the beginning was the WORD (logos) and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD!

My mom went through some VERY rough times before she was saved. She became a KJV only, Independent Baptist kind of person after her conversion. She was so die-hard that even the INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH had a problem with her and she had to leave!!!!! She did not have any understanding of the original languages and she did not understand too much about the history of Christianity, but she did start studying a little and started coming across much information that would blow the socks off of it. Unfortunately, she left much of the truth altogether; kinda threw the baby out with the bathwater, which is what happens when you start seeing through all the scheming and scamming of religion.

My dad, on the other hand, began studying the Greek and Hebrew and started putting 2 and 2 together. He is a VERY intelligent man and he does not like to be made a fool of. He was the one that told me to start studying UR. I thought he was a fool. I know what I had been taught. I could see the word "hell" right there in my Bible. BOY, was I so wrong.

I am a VERY stubborn person; it has taken me YEARS to say that. I don't think that most of humanity tends to be very humble, either. And when pastors and teachers preach something day in and day out, and have many followers, and need the income, they are bound to keep their mouths shut even if the Holy Spirit were to bring something to their attention. They quench it and keep on going, shouting and pounding the podiums. I believe Hitler used many sermon-like speeches in his talks (I can't discern between some of his speeches and the stuff I heard growing up)

Anyway, my mom recently died, but before she did, she had some interesting things to say. VERY INTERESTING! It might have been her impending death that started to soften her, I don't know. The last time I talked to her, a couple of months before she died, I asked her what she believed. We had been talking about hell and UR and such and she finally said, "You know, one of those Evangelical preachers that I used to listen to didn't believe in hell either, at least not the traditional hell. I was SHOCKED! (You would have to know her to understand why) She NEVER said she was wrong about something and would NEVER agree with anybody. She also started talking about the Hippy People from the 60s!!!! In a good way!!! And she wasn't a fan of them!

She actually started to listen to me.........

I really wish that people would truly start thinking about who God is and what His character is about, and rethink what you have been TOLD the scriptures say. Remember, NONE of it was written in English, and the Latin Church had it's pagan ways with it, also.

Keep following the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness.

Anyway, I am not trying to offend you, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to let you know that I see where you are coming from.
My appologies for going over the top, but i have been where you are now, not believing in the traditiona hell...my studies of the greek and hebrew where instigated by JWs who claimed that there bible was grammatically correct particularly john 1:1 was different in there bible...so, i wanted to know the truth...so, i studied koine greek and found that they were devious in there translations...JWs do not believe in hell either...but, that is not the point here...i also knew that if i chose koine study material from a christian organization, that it would be biased in its translations of words...so, i chose a college level book to begin my studies...this also took me to hebrew and aramaic...i have found the way people translate things and the english words they use can shift meaning greatly...for instance...

John 3:3 - [SIZE=3]
[/SIZE]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the greek it is born from above, and to see the kingdom is a recognition of the reign of God...Many think it is talking about not being able to get into heaven...it is not, it is talking about being able to see the reign of God...because we know spiritual things are spiritual discerned, but we in our unregenerated state are unspiritual...so, the verse in Greek is:

'i tell you the truth, that unless one is born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God.'...through the greek i have seen many differences in what i was taught and understand scripture very different from most...
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:33 PM
 
Location: US
26,343 posts, read 13,966,957 times
Reputation: 1599
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
TKC,

I only used certain excerpts from your post to address your errors. The others have little use for the arguement, as it lay in these few statements.



I am going to stop you right here, and this is the only area of the post I am going to address. I have seen this arguement before, that Jews are really spritual Gentiles. It is false.

Read carefully, the beast of the field ARE NOT Israel:

And in that day will I make a covenant for them (Israel) with the beasts (Gentiles) of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Now read again parenthesis mine:

Isa 11:6 The wolf (unclean animal) also shall dwell with the lamb (clean animal), and the leopard (unlcean) shall lie down with the kid (Christ); and the calf (clean) and the young lion (unlcean) and the fatling (sacrifice)together; and a little child (Christ) shall lead them.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD




Although you eisegetically interpreted it this way, I do agree with you on your conclusion even though you are in error on how you got there.



I agree with both of them, in the context of Salvific propitation is only in effect for those that claim Christ's salvific effort. That is the message of scripture. Wrath abides in the unbeliever, or do you disagree with that?.... so in respect to the authority of the scripture, God does not love those that deny Him, and Christ's death has no purpose for the wicked if they continue onto their reprobate ways, God's mercy and love will flow freely onto them if they accept the sacrifice. That is the purpose of the Gospel, something I think has been lost in UR. In UR, there is no need to exhortation and proclamation, for everyone is already saved. Everyone is not saved. The "offering of salvation" is in effect, but one must accept that offer for it to be expiated.

The doctrine of atonement includes both dimensions: propitation - averting the wrath of God - and expiation - taking away or covering over human guilt. A sacrifice was necessary to satisfy the demands of His law, but God Himself provided the sacrfice out of His incomparable love for His people that kept His law circumcised in their hearts, those that served Him well, and especially, most specifically, the original promise He had given Abraham, and that redemption would sprout from His seed, and through His seed, many would be blessed.

Salvation is a free gift appropiated through faith - Eph 2:8-9; Rom 3:28: Rom 10:9. No individual merits salvation by fulfillment of God's law - Rom 3:20 ....Saving faith is, however, obediant faith - Rom 1:5; 16:26; 1 Pet 1:2 - Assurance of salvation is grounded in confidence that God is able to finish the good work begun in us personally (Phil 1:6) that God who sacrificed His Son for sinners - Rom 8:32 - and that nothing can separate us from God's love in Christ - Rom 8:35-39 - Confidence in God's ability to keep those who have entrusted their lives to Christ is not, however an excuse for any believer inactivity or moral failure - Rom 6:12-13; Eph 2:10. God's SAVING WORK involves conviction of sin - John 16:8 - repentance from sin to God - Luke 15:7,10; 2 Cor 7:10 - faith commitment to Christ - John 3:16, 36 - confession of Christ as Lord and Savior - Acts 2:21: Rom 10:9-10 - Scripture describes this act as a NEW BIRTH - John 3:3; Titus 3:5 - new creation - 2 Cor 5:17 - adoption - Rom 8:15; Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:5 - empowerment to be God's children - John 1:12 - that status of the saints - 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1 - This initial work in the believer's life is often termed justification. Justification also embraces God's final judgement, which according to the article, and the entire website, is a fulfilled event.

However, in light of my orthodox futurist brothers on this board, regardless of the timing of His coming and consummation of justification FOR THE BELIEVER AND SAINT, the salvific atonement for mankind only is effective in the believer, and that, along with the deity of Christ, is the core and fundamental foundation for the Christain faith.
I see a lot of illogic in your deductions...how can one choose of their own volition when God say we are all dead in sin and want nothing to do with Him?...
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
My appologies for going over the top, but i have been where you are now, not believing in the traditiona hell...my studies of the greek and hebrew where instigated by JWs who claimed that there bible was grammatically correct particularly john 1:1 was different in there bible...so, i wanted to know the truth...so, i studied koine greek and found that they were devious in there translations...JWs do not believe in hell either...but, that is not the point here...i also knew that if i chose koine study material from a christian organization, that it would be biased in its translations of words...so, i chose a college level book to begin my studies...this also took me to hebrew and aramaic...i have found the way people translate things and the english words they use can shift meaning greatly...for instance...

John 3:3 - [SIZE=3]
[/SIZE]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the greek it is born from above, and to see the kingdom is a recognition of the reign of God...Many think it is talking about not being able to get into heaven...it is not, it is talking about being able to see the reign of God...because we know spiritual things are spiritual discerned, but we in our unregenerated state are unspiritual...so, the verse in Greek is:

'i tell you the truth, that unless one is born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God.'...through the greek i have seen many differences in what i was taught and understand scripture very different from most...
Well, I guess I am going the opposite direction here, then. I used to believe in the Traditional Greek version of hell with my whole heart, but when I started studying, my eyes just about popped out of their sockets!!!!

I really CAN'T believe why anybody would teach what they teach after intense studying unless they are just plain ol' wolves.

And, I truly am starting to believe that many teachers are just that; wolves.

Just a few more reasons to cry at night.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
It means the article is wrong to take "hated" as meaning
1. God forever hates one fixed subset of humanity and does not care to save them
2. God forever loves another fixed subset of humanity and cares to save only them

The gave two counter-examples to the notion that the “hated” are forever-hated.
1. God hated the beloved of His soul. Nevertheless God stated that He intended to have compassion on them at a later time.
2. The Psalm I quoted says God hates the wicked. Romans plainly teaches that every man is has been inherently and actively wicked. So God hated them. Yet some of those He hated He has saved.

Doesn't matter, it is still an example of God having compassion ones that He “hated”. It also helps give some nuance to the scriptural meaning of "hated".
Sure it does. It was my second example of God having compassion on people whom He “hated”
Not at all. The gist of this Psalm is that God is against the wicked and for the righteous. In fact that is the gist of a whole lot of scripture.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


This passage describes every man as the epitome of wickedness (for those in Christ, this is prior to God writing His law on our hearts)

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.


The real wordproofing is the article taking the scriptural word "hateth" and applying all the English nuances to it.

Yes, it’s talking about people. No it is not talking specifically about God saving some physical Gentiles. It is about God saving some spiritual Gentiles who happen to be physical Jews. God is not just talking to a collective entity, God is talking to and about individuals.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


1. God is talking to physical Jews, not physical Gentiles

Hosea 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband:


2. These physical Jews are spiritual Gentiles (uncircumcised heart)

let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts


3. God has no mercy on them (God “hateth” the wicked)

Hosea 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst. 4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms

...I will hedge up thy way with thorns,
...Now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers
...None shall deliver her out of mine hand.
...I will destroy her vines and her fig trees
...I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them
...I will also cause all her mirth to cease


4. God intends to bring them to repentance.

...then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
...ttherefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her


5. God circumcises their uncircumcised hearts. God takes out the stony heart and gives them a heart of flesh. Not because of anything good they had done (they hadn’t done anything good) but because God is God. He has no mercy upon whom He choses (as He did on them) and He has mercy upon whom He choses (as He did on them).

And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.


6. God was having mercy upon those whom He had “no mercy”.

And I have pitied Lo-Ruhamah,
Lo-Ruhamah: “I add no more to pity the house of Israel, for I do utterly take them away”


God is taking spiritual Gentiles (beasts of the field, fowls of the air etc) judging them, taking the name of Baal out of their mouth, circumcising their hearts, and then having mercy upon them. Paul applies Hosea to both Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

So I disagree that Hosea is specifically about God saving physical Gentiles, although since it is about God converting spiritual Gentiles into spiritual Jews, then it certianly includes the salvation of Gentiles.

My point was not to generalize it to the whole world. My point was to show that in Hosea 2 the same group of people are
1. not my people and later my people
2. not beloved and later beloved
3. no mercy and later mercy

In contrast the article believes humanity is divided into two groups
1. beloved objects of mercy
2. hated objects of no mercy

So since a man of God, speaking by the Spirit of God and by faith, gave Esau a hopeful blessing concerning things to come, I am hopeful for Esau concerning things to come. In contrast, the article dooms Esau and all who are similarly "hated" of God.

The article flat-out says
1. God does not love everyone
2. Christ did not die for everyone
3. the atonement was limited
4. Christ died with the intention of saving His elect.

Do you disagree with points #2 and #3?


Again, it doesn’t affect my point. If these Jews are being criticized for not believing the report, then they were supposed to believe the report that God placed their sins on Christ. But this is moot since you don't believe in limited atonement.

I can only answer for myself. "Israel" does not always mean the same thing in scripture. Sometimes it refers to physical Israel and other times to spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

i.e. Not all of physical Israel are in Christ. But as far as spiritual Israel: Spiritual Israel = Seed of Abraham = Children of God = Those born again of Christ’s Spirit though faith by God's grace and mercy. No one else.

Only if every man who dies in Adam is made alive in Christ will every physical Jew and Gentile be Israel.
Only if every man who goes down to the dust, remembers and returns to the Lord will the whole world be Israel.
Only if all of the crooked are made straight and all flesh sees the salvation of God, will all the world be Israel.
Only if God has mercy upon all whom He locked up in their own unbelief [which refers to "no mercy"] will all the world be Israel.

They do not have the ears to hear, so they will keep TRYING to fit those square pegs into round holes. If they stopped, listened, and understood what the SPIRIT was trying to say, they would have to LOVE! EVERYBODY! EVEN THEIR WORSE ENEMIES, POLITICAL AND OTHERWISE!

JESUS SAID TO LOVE YOUR ENEMIES! WHO DOES THAT?????

The lies will be brought into the open and the light will shine on all of this confusion one day.....Hopefully, soon.

I'm just glad I finally understand and don't have to wander around in confusion anymore.
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:34 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
TKC,


I am going to stop you right here, and this is the only area of the post I am going to address. I have seen this arguement before, that Jews are really spritual Gentiles. It is false.
"Spiritual Gentiles" was just a coined phrase / shorthand that I thought you'd understand as meaning spiritually uncircumcised people (whether physical Jew or Gentile). The Jews whom God was addressing were clearly that, uncircumcised of heart, outward but not inward Jews. I didn't say that Jews in general should be equated to "Spiritual Gentiles". Not all of Israel is Israel, but some of Israel is Israel. I could have said "Jews with uncircumcised hearts" or "outward but not inward Jews" instead of "spiritual Gentiles".
  • Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Quote:
Read carefully, the beast of the field ARE NOT Israel:

And in that day will I make a covenant for them (Israel) with the beasts (Gentiles) of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
It does not have to be referring to them to be referring to "spiritual Gentiles" rather than physical Gentiles. At any rate, even if it refers to physical Gentiles, the interpretation of that one verse does not change the rest of the chapter and is tangential to the point I was making: That God is having no mercy upon a people who were not inward Jews, but later God will have mercy on them. God not having mercy on some people does not imply they are forever-hated of God. The scriptures are full of examples of God having no mercy and later having mercy on people.

Hosea 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

Hosea 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

Hosea 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.

Hosea 2:17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Hosea 3:1 And the Lord said to me, Go yet, and love a woman that loves evil things, an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the children of Israel, and they have respect to strange gods, and love cakes of dried grapes. 2 So I hired her to myself for fifteen pieces of silver, and a homer of barley, and a flagon of wine. 3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt wait for me many days; and thou shalt not commit fornication, neither shalt thou be for another man; and I will be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an altar, and without a priesthood, and without manifestations. 5 And afterward shall the children of Israel return, and shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall be amazed at the Lord and at his goodness in the latter days.

Quote:
I agree with both of them, in the context of Salvific propitation is only in effect for those that claim Christ's salvific effort.
Then the terminology is inconsistent and confusing. They say they believe in limited atonement. You said the article does not contain limited atonement.

Quote:
That is the message of scripture. Wrath abides in the unbeliever, or do you disagree with that?
Nope, I agree with that completely.

Quote:
.... so in respect to the authority of the scripture, God does not love those that deny Him
You might be conflating the English words "love" and "hate" with the scriptural words translated "love" and "hate" depending on what you mean by "God does not love...". They are not identical in nuance. God hated the dealy beloved of His soul but intended to later have compassion on them. Thus God "hating" them is more along the lines of what God does to them as opposed to God not caring about their ultimate fate. But I agree that God "hateth" (scriptural meaning of hateth) the wicked as long as they continue in their wickedness. That includes the wicked who will later repent. While in their wickedness, the wrath of God abides on them. God "hateth" them per the Psalm I quoted and many other passages.

Quote:
...and Christ's death has no purpose for the wicked if they continue onto their reprobate ways





It shows sinners that God loved them (cared about their ultimate fate) while they were yet sinners
  • Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
Christ died for the unrighteous. Unrighteous means wicked in their reprobate ways. If Christ's death had no purpose for the wicked then Christ died for no purpose since Christ died for the wicked. Even if you limit Christ's death being for only some of the wicked, it's still the same. Christ died for some wicked people while in their wickedness and yet obviously there was a purpose.

Quote:
God's mercy and love will flow freely onto them if they accept the sacrifice.





So if they "accept the sacrifice" but do not do what Christ says then "mercy and love will flow freely"? No it won't.
  • Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand.
  • Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Quote:
That is the purpose of the Gospel, something I think has been lost in UR. In UR, there is no need to exhortation and proclamation, for everyone is already saved. Everyone is not saved. The "offering of salvation" is in effect, but one must accept that offer for it to be expiated.
As I posted somewhere else here, I do not believe eveyone is already saved. So preaching the gospel is necessary. Yet we only plant & water -- God gives the increase.

Quote:
The doctrine of atonement includes both dimensions: propitation - averting the wrath of God - and expiation - taking away or covering over human guilt. A sacrifice was necessary to satisfy the demands of His law, but God Himself provided the sacrfice out of His incomparable love for His people that kept His law circumcised in their hearts, those that served Him well, and especially, most specifically, the original promise He had given Abraham, and that redemption would sprout from His seed, and through His seed, many would be blessed.

Salvation is a free gift appropiated through faith - Eph 2:8-9; Rom 3:28: Rom 10:9. No individual merits salvation by fulfillment of God's law - Rom 3:20 ....Saving faith is, however, obediant faith - Rom 1:5; 16:26; 1 Pet 1:2 - Assurance of salvation is grounded in confidence that God is able to finish the good work begun in us personally (Phil 1:6) that God who sacrificed His Son for sinners - Rom 8:32 - and that nothing can separate us from God's love in Christ - Rom 8:35-39 - Confidence in God's ability to keep those who have entrusted their lives to Christ is not, however an excuse for any believer inactivity or moral failure - Rom 6:12-13; Eph 2:10. God's SAVING WORK involves conviction of sin - John 16:8 - repentance from sin to God - Luke 15:7,10; 2 Cor 7:10 - faith commitment to Christ - John 3:16, 36 - confession of Christ as Lord and Savior - Acts 2:21: Rom 10:9-10 - Scripture describes this act as a NEW BIRTH - John 3:3; Titus 3:5 - new creation - 2 Cor 5:17 - adoption - Rom 8:15; Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:5 - empowerment to be God's children - John 1:12 - that status of the saints - 1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1 - This initial work in the believer's life is often termed justification. Justification also embraces God's final judgement, which according to the article, and the entire website, is a fulfilled event.

However, in light of my orthodox futurist brothers on this board, regardless of the timing of His coming and consummation of justification FOR THE BELIEVER AND SAINT, the salvific atonement for mankind only is effective in the believer, and that, along with the deity of Christ, is the core and fundamental foundation for the Christain faith.
Alot there I agree with. Faith is also a gift.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-15-2010 at 10:50 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:24 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Where did Christ say He was sent to save the whole world?...
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Where did Christ say He was sent to save the whole world?...


1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world"

John 12:47 For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it'"

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"

John 4:42 "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man is the Savior of the world"

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

John 6:51 This bread is my flesh, which I give for the life of the world"

I John 2:2 He is the [propitiation] for our sins, and not only for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"

I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
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