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Old 05-11-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,545 posts, read 11,648,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Who cares what they think?
I didn't want to say this earlier, but the question sums up my feelings for them.

When I was a toddler, my mom took me with her to their outreach where she was to be prepared for ministry. Part of their preparation for ministry was to separate me from her for an "extended" period of time (I don't remember how long it was, but it didn't help that I would soon be in a foster home, and have a pretty busted up childhood).

I've followed their teachings from afar, and I doubt I would believe much of anything they taught.

As for the "rapture", if instead we speak of being caught up in the spirit (Acts 8:39; II Cor. 12:2-4; Rev. 4:1-2), translated into the Kingdom (Col. 1:13), raised up into the heavenlies with Christ (Eph. 2:5-6), and caught up into the throne, the spiritual dimension of the Christ's authority, power and glory (Rev. 4:1-2; Rev. 3:21; Rev. 12:5) we will rid ourselves of much confusion and carnal delusion, and we will have a much better understanding of present spiritual realities and the immediate program of God.

Instead of "looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:13) - most Christians are not looking for the "coming" of the Lord - rather, they are expecting the "going" of the saints...

...as you meditate on Romans 8:19 (For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.), consider George Hawtin's words of truth:

Quote:
"The three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace were living types of the elect of God as they will be preserved through the fires of tribulation. The fire will not hurt them and the Son of God, who was with those blessed three, will be with us also. The elect will be right here in the world, yet they will be caught up to a new realm of spiritual glory and power, a realm where nothing of the earth can really harm them. Daniel was thrown into the den of ravening lions because of his faithfulness to God, but because he lived in a heavenly realm far above all his associates, the roaring lions became as docile as domestic kittens in his presence. It is quite possible that he stroked their manes and listened with pleasure to their mighty purring throughout the night when angels came to shut their mouths, yet these same lions tore his enemies to pieces before they could fall to the bottom of the pit. And thus I think it will be for all God's elect people. They will be in the fire, but never feel it. They will be in the lion's den, but find no hurt. Yea, they will be like Noah, who rode through the great waters of the flood, but came down to bring the people a glorious new age, which in our case will be the age of the Kingdom."
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:31 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,577,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Interesting that not one sound exegetical rebuttal has been offered on UR's part. It appears they cannot, because they are unable.
The article completely falters on "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated".

"Hated" does not mean that God does not care to save Esau. It refers to what God does. God's wrath abides on all vessels of dishonor.



Here God "hates" the beloved of His soul, His heritage, His house. Notice that "hated" here refers to what God does to them. It does not refer to God not caring about their fate. It does not mean that God intends to never have mercy on them.
  • Jeremaiah 12:7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. 8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it. 9 Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour. 10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. 11 They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.
If God's "hated" were a forever-hated as the article portays, then God would not speak of having compassion upon those he "hated":
  • Jeremaiah 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
The fact is God "hateth" all lovers of violence.
  • Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
And evey man is or was at one time a lover of violence.
  • Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.
So every man at some time has been the object of God's "hatred". Not just Esau. If such "hatred" implied no intent to save, then none would be saved.

The article rightly understands that
1. God has mercy upon whom He wills (He removes the stony heart and gives them a heart of flesh)
2. God has no mercy upon whom He wills (He hardens them and His wrath is upon them)

But the article is utterly blind to the fact that God will:
1. Call them beloved whom He called NOT BELOVED (i.e. hated) (Romans 9:25)
2. Have mercy upon those whom He showed NO MERCY (Hos 2:4, 2:23)
3. Call them my people whom He called NOT MY PEOPLE (Hos 1:10, Hos 2:24, Romans 9:25)

By faith Isaac blessed BOTH Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. Hebrews 1:11.

Limited atonement is a lie.
1. It defies logic. Consider carefully. If Christ died only for the elect (one subset of humanity) then the non-elect (the rest of humanity) RIGHTLY DOES NOT BELIEVE that Christ died for them.
2. The scriptures say "who has believed Our report". i.e. the non-elect failed to believe "Our report". And what was that report they failed to believe? That God laid upon Christ their sins. Isaiah 53
3. The scriptures plainly states that the gospel is for every person. "I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."
4. It makes God like the publican and sinner who loves only those who love Him.

The article also mentions that Calvin wrote a tract against universalism. So what!?? Calvin had trouble with "thou shallt not murder". Were Calvin a child of Abraham he would have done the works of Abraham. All murderers have their part in the Lake of Fire. Thankfully for Calvin, God is much more merciful than Calvin ever imagined.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-11-2010 at 04:54 PM..
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,329,304 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Do not need to write a rebuttle to the article, it is false by the very nature of context.

The articles premise is that UR manipulates verses and takes them out of context, but the writer presents a false premise.

UR and the verses it presents in general are not out of context, they align perfectly with the context of Gods love and a God whos judgments are corrective in nature.
Prove it.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:06 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,728,015 times
Reputation: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Prove it.
God did that for me, for He is LOVE.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,329,304 times
Reputation: 420
ThyKingdomCome,

Thank you for an exegesis.
It appears only one cares enough about their view to offer one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
The article completely falters on "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated".

"Hated" does not mean that God does not care to save Esau. It refers to what God does. God's wrath abides on all vessels of dishonor.
Which means?



Quote:
Here God "hates" the beloved of His soul, His heritage, His house. Notice that "hatred" here refers to what God does to them. It does not refer to God not caring about their fate. It does not mean that God intends to never has have mercy on them.
  • Jeremaiah 12:7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. 8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it. 9 Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour. 10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. 11 They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.
If God's "hatred" were a forever-hatred as the article portays, then God would not speak of having compassion upon those he "hateth":
  • Jeremaiah 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
They, His House, is Israel, not the whole entire human race.


Quote:
The fact is God "hates" all lovers of violence.
  • Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
This doesn't help UR.
And it certainly doesn't tie in with your opening statement.


Quote:
And evey man is or was at one time a lover of violence.
  • Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.
So every man at some time has been the obejct of God's "hatred". Not just Esau.
And? This sounds alot like "wordproofing"......


Quote:
The article rightly understands that
1. God has mercy upon whom He wills (He removes the stony heart and gives them a heart of flesh)
2. God has no mercy upon whom He wills (He hardens them and His wrath is upon them)
Agian...doesn't help UR.

Quote:
But the article is utterly blind to the fact that God will:
1. Call them beloved whom He called NOT BELOVED (i.e. hated) (Romans 9:25)
Verse 30 That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Quote:
2. Have mercy upon those whom He showed NO MERCY (Hos 2:4, 2:23)
Hos 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her (Israel) children; for they (Israel) [be] the children of whoredoms.

Hos 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Who is he speaking of here? Gentiles. Notice that this terminology comes straight from Genesis. Does God really make a covenant with birds, beasts and creeping things? Or, does He make His covenant with people? Hosea uses the language of Genesis to describe the restoration that we eventually see in Revelation. Notice that the animals, birds and creeping things are all related to people. Jesus also makes this same comparison when He makes His disciples “fishers of men.” He is the Good Shepherd that tends His “sheep”, a clean animal, the lamb will lie with the wolf.

Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

The relationship is concluded at the close of the chapter, in that Gentiles, elected into the faith, are chosen into His covenant.

Quote:
3. Call them my people whom He called NOT MY PEOPLE (Hos 1:10, Hos 2:24, Romans 9:25)
Again, these are all pointing towards Gentiles. You can't generalize this to be the entire world, because the scripture nevers considers the whole world to be elected into the faith. Only that the sins have been paid for, and can only be propitated upon inner circumcision and confession.

Quote:
By faith Isaac blessed BOTH Jacob and Esau concening things to come. Hebrews 1:11.
So?

Quote:
Limited atonement is a lie.
The article doesn't promote limited atonement, but what it does promote is limited election, and that, is scripturally sound. Not everyone is chosen to be a new creation...simple as that.

Quote:
1. It defies logic. Consider carefully. If Christ died only for the elect (one subset of humanity) then the non-elect (the rest of humanity) RIGHTLY DOES NOT BELIEVE that Christ died for them.
Agreed. Why would they need to know since their sins were never paid for?

Quote:
2. The scriptures say "who has believed Our report". i.e. the non-elect failed to believe "Our report". And what was that report they failed to believe? That God laid upon Christ their sins. Isaiah 53
This verse is speaking of JEWS not believing. Watch this: ....Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem (Under Christ, Jew and Gentile, Jerusalem, a separate people).......Depart ye,(Christ) depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean [thing]; go ye out of the midst of her (Israel); be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. ...yet we (Israel) did esteem him (Christ) stricken...

Most certainly the entire world is not Israel, Jerusalem, or Mt. Zion, or is it according to UR?
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,329,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
God did that for me, for He is LOVE.
Concession. Next?
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:17 PM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,727,184 times
Reputation: 1122
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Why do people fight against UR so much?
Because it's the devil's lie.

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sinners go to hell; only those who have been made holy and righteous will walk through those pearly gates.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:19 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,728,015 times
Reputation: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Concession. Next?

There is no next, God is Love, there is nothing greater. A God that creates a place where his hope cannot exist is not Love, since God hasn't done that He is Love and that's all the proof anyone needs.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:21 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,728,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Because it's the devil's lie.

only those who have been made holy and righteous will walk through those pearly gates.

UR does not teach that anyone unholy or unrighteous will walk through.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,469,078 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Because it's the devil's lie.

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sinners go to hell; only those who have been made holy and righteous will walk through those pearly gates.
Where does that passage say that sinners go to hell? All it says is that even the apostles were theives, covetous, drunkards...etc but they were washed...renewed by the spirit of God... It also doesn't say that anyone will be left in the unrighteous state. If the holy spirit washes them then wouldn't death and standing in the presence of the Holy spirit wash you anyway?

You are reading alot into that one passage! ONLY those washed are let in... yet what part of that verse says that God will not wash them as the enter?
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