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Old 06-12-2010, 11:52 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I was looking at this thread and came across these comments. Phazelwood, I find it most ironic that you violate your own principle, which you stated clearly in the following response to me in another thread:

"A verse you say is a clear proof text about eternal damnation that doesn't even say eternal damnation in the text isn't worth the effort to bother with."

By this principle, your use of the Philippians passage to show that those who bend the knee receive salvation isn't worth the effort to bother with because the text doesn't say "salvation."
Systematic Theology...Logic...Reason...Amen
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:56 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
AND to refute UR John 3:16 is used.... Yet salvation is not in that verse either. Neither is hell mentioned in many verses that are used to say that belief is necessary for salvation...

Par for the course!
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

so, what is everlasting life then?....And what is it to perish?...
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Yeah, hopefully since Jesus Christ of the bible is the only Christ there is, then there isn't gonna be much confusion there. But you create confusion by stating in a thread that some profess in Jesus Christ but really do not believe. There just isn't any other Jesus in the first place.

So more convoluted nonsense that only preoccupies Christians needlessly.
I believe Mike555 meant that there are those that just where the label of Christian....as if it is something to pass the time and make one look good to the community...we see them all the time...
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not [b]perishB], but have everlasting life.

so, what is everlasting life then?....And what is it to perish?...
Everlasting does not mean eternal. You have to PUT ON immortality. Those that "perish" will not be in the "better resurrection," I believe. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:23 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,724,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
God destroyed the world through a flood...no one was there to save it...Christ comes and sacrifices Himself...His sacrifice had a temporal salvation for the world because it stayed God's hand of execution like that of the days of Noah for the wickedness of man...His Sacrifice had an Eternal Salvation for the chosen or elected of God...
I guess you're one of the chosen? I haven't met anyone yet who believes in that high and mighty concept and thinks they are one of the unfortunate unchosen.
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The point i am making is that for a spiritual babe in Christ that commits sin will be tormented by Satan...telling him that he has messed up one to many times and he might as give it up because he is damned to hell...which makes him ineffective for spreading the Gospel...We have liberty in Christ to do all things, but not all things are benificial...should we use our liberty to sin?...God forbid!...Obviously the reason Paul made this statement is because the truth of the matter is that a believer's sins are all paid for...their account is no longer in the red...it is in the black and shall remain so....Paul is saying just because this is so, do not abuse it by feeling free to sin, because you are a new creation in Christ, no longer in the dark, but in the light...if you commit a sin, Christ has already paid for it, commit it again, Christ has already paid for it...But, why abuse the liberty in Christ?...don't do it!...
I agree with all of this, except where you say "believers' sins are paid for" I believe the scripture that says "while we were YET sinners Christ died for us," which means unbelievers sins are also paid for. What you described above is true, and is exactly why it's ridiculous when people say if UR were true everyone could just go around sinning all the time.
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

so, what is everlasting life then?....And what is it to perish?...
Well let us reason this one out...Shall we?

How many believers never die? NONE

How many believers are saved? ALL

So what does it mean that believers should not perish?
Perish is:
αποληται apollumi: to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

This same word is used in:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

So we can see that to perish is to be lost in this context because we know it cannot be literal because everyone dies.

Now taking a look at everlasting life:
The two greek words used here are:
ζωην -zoe: life -- life(-time).
and
αιωνιον aionios: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

But notice that although the translators used the word everlasting here it is the same aionios zoe used here:

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus in talking/praying to God states that eternal life (aionios zoe) is to know God and Jesus Christ.

So with simple reasoning we can see that to perish is to be lost and having everlasting life is to know God and his son. Therefore, we can conclude that if you believe then you are not lost but know God and Jesus Christ.

It is very simple and has absolutely nothing to do with salvation other than that if you believe then you are cognizant of your salvation whereas those that don't believe are blind to their lack of an abundant life. All of which pertains to life or your lifetime and has nothing to do with any afterlife.

Furthermore it is the unbelievers, the ones who are perishing and are lost that Jesus came to seek and save. So how then can anyone state that those are the ones who are never saved?
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Everlasting does not mean eternal. You have to PUT ON immortality. Those that "perish" will not be in the "better resurrection," I believe. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't completely agree with that because I don't see that it refers to an afterlife (see my reply to Richard above) but the point you are making is a good one. If one must put on immortality then one doesn't have it now and therefore, the perpetual life that overlooks the fact that everyone dies and that would hardly make a perpetual situation.

So I disagree but at the same time your point is correct. One that has immortality doesn't need to put it on.
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:05 AM
 
Location: US
26,411 posts, read 14,007,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I guess you're one of the chosen? I haven't met anyone yet who believes in that high and mighty concept and thinks they are one of the unfortunate unchosen.
No one can believe unless God regenerates them...
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:10 AM
 
Location: US
26,411 posts, read 14,007,478 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I agree with all of this, except where you say "believers' sins are paid for" I believe the scripture that says "while we were YET sinners Christ died for us," which means unbelievers sins are also paid for. What you described above is true, and is exactly why it's ridiculous when people say if UR were true everyone could just go around sinning all the time.
You are including the whole world in that statement...He was talking to belivers and telling them while we as believers now, were still sinners, Christ died for us...he was not talking about all humanity, he was talking about believers, the Chosen as he calls them in other parts...
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