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Old 06-26-2010, 10:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I was referring to that verse all along and you can take from that verse without hesitation that He is the God of how much more , He is not limited to being "The God of how much more" just in His gift giving.

God forbid that we should limit Him .
Pcamps, the fundamentalists believe God is a failure, unable to save all that he has created. They believe evil is greater than Good, sin greater than the blood sacrifice of our lord. They worship a god which is overcome and ultimately defeated by everlasting evil ...
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Pcamps, the fundamentalists believe God is a failure, unable to save all that he has created. They believe evil is greater than Good, sin greater than the blood sacrifice of our lord. They worship a god which is overcome and ultimately defeated by everlasting evil ...
Actually it is UR that believes God is a failure, because when He said it was finished, it really wasn't finished. They also believe that Christ is a liar and all the apostles were liars as well when they said that one must believe in Christ to have eternal life with Him, when they were clear that confession and rebirth must happen whilst one is still in the status of the old man, the old creation that you and I are bound to without Christ.
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Like i said

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.
????
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
the bigger picture is God is doing all this to glorify Himself...and why shouldn't He....He is God...
You are absolutely correct
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by sarkar00ss1007 View Post
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Actually it is UR that believes God is a failure, because when He said it was finished, it really wasn't finished. They also believe that Christ is a liar and all the apostles were liars as well when they said that one must believe in Christ to have eternal life with Him, when they were clear that confession and rebirth must happen whilst one is still in the status of the old man, the old creation that you and I are bound to without Christ.
He said it was finished yet you think there are people to be judged and sentenced still... how is that finished in your mind? It is finished because all men are ransomed AND set free. "Must believe" is not in scripture... It is weird how you forget preterist principals in exegesis when it comes to atonement... the transition period was different then after completion....
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
He said it was finished yet you think there are people to be judged and sentenced still...
The judgement was directed solely at Israel, lest you forget.
Hence resurrection of the dead.

Quote:
how is that finished in your mind?
The Atonement for sin. Curtain removed....Holy of Holies now open for any who "knocks".

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It is finished because all men are ransomed AND set free. "Must believe" is not in scripture.
Yes it is...everywhere.

Quote:
It is weird how you forget preterist principals in exegesis when it comes to atonement... the transition period was different then after completion....
Not forgetting Preterist principples, as they still apply in the New Heaven and Earth....faith in Christ, eternal life. You miss the entire premise of the apostles "getting everyone ready" for the New Age To Come. You forget the Preterist principles of faith and righteousness in the NH and E, and apply this righteousness as already imputed into the unbeliever....without faith. This is heresy.

Read up on it.
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Old 06-26-2010, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The judgement was directed solely at Israel, lest you forget.
Hence resurrection of the dead.
Israel doesn't exist anymore so you are saying there is not individual judgment of sinners to then be punished for their unbelief for eternity? Great! We agree.


Quote:
The Atonement for sin. Curtain removed....Holy of Holies now open for any who "knocks".
IF sin is atoned for on the cross and the holy of holies is open then knocking is not a requirement but a choice you can make. The deed is done. If it wasn't done for everyone then there would still be something unfinished to be finished in the future. Jesus entered the holy of holies carrying the sin of all men, or just Israel if you want. Yet that atonement is the salvation of the world.

Again, knocking is not a requirement... I should know... I never knocked. I shut the door and ran the other way.... God didn't give up... he dragged me back kicking and screaming, weeping and gnashing my teeth all the way!


Quote:
Yes it is...everywhere.
Do a search for "must believe" and you will find 3 verses that are translated that way:

Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone COMES to God they believe he exists? People who don't believe in God don't earnest seek him? or do they in fact end up earnestly seeking him while kicking and screaming?

James 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Isn't this kinda obvious? If you ask and have doubt then how do you expect to withstand the wind? Either believe fully or don't. If you halfway believe and ask will your prayer be heard? I believe my wishy washy half-believe prayer was answered once I finished throwing my fit.

And the last one is 1 John 3:23 which you will see is also about the apostles getting what they ask for. The apostles seem to need to show the people signs and miracles so they would be convinced Jesus was sent by the true God and not a false prophet. Do you have that problem now? That you are unable to do miracles because you don't fully believe? And if you DO fully believe, WHY CANT you do miracles or get exactly what you ask for?

So given your preterist roots I figure you should agree with me because Jesus didn't tell US this (although their are obvious spiritual tips here), he told the disciples this: "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." (John 16:23) So they "must believe" or destruction (70AD) would be on their heads... raining down on them. He who overcomes (by believing) will not be harmed....by the "lake of fire." Does that apply to us now? Certainly not. If you believe that Rev. pertained to then (70AD) then YOU must also admit this admonishing to believe in Christ ONLY applied to then as Christ spoke it directly TO THEM. And certainly it DOES help to believe in Christ but does belief in Christ changed what was most certainly done then? Not according to scripture.

Please show me where it says that one must believe in the NH&E.. then I may have to agree with you, otherwise the scripture (in preterist light) is clear when taken in context.... The disciples/apostles had a tough job and HAD to believe fully!... however this doesn't apply to us in that urgent sense, nor is it a "rule" of salvation.

Quote:
Not forgetting Preterist principples, as they still apply in the New Heaven and Earth....faith in Christ, eternal life. You miss the entire premise of the apostles "getting everyone ready" for the New Age To Come. You forget the Preterist principles of faith and righteousness in the NH and E, and apply this righteousness as already imputed into the unbeliever....without faith. This is heresy.

Read up on it.
What do you mean Preterist principles still apply in the new heaven and earth? Preterist principles are simply that you must take into consideration the date and time/ happenings when the book was written. If John talks to Peter, he is simply talking to Peter not to us. "This generation" means the one in which the sentence was written.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
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Old 06-26-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Israel doesn't exist anymore so you are saying there is not individual judgment of sinners to then be punished for their unbelief for eternity? Great! We agree.
I am an Israelite. So yes, it does exist.
The resurrection was solely for the Israel under the Law.

Quote:
IF sin is atoned for on the cross and the holy of holies is open then knocking is not a requirement but a choice you can make. The deed is done. If it wasn't done for everyone then there would still be something unfinished to be finished in the future. Jesus entered the holy of holies carrying the sin of all men, or just Israel if you want. Yet that atonement is the salvation of the world.
Yes it is for the whole world, but the scriptures are clear how this atonment becomes effective in the man or woman.

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Again, knocking is not a requirement.
Yes it is. The scriptures point this out verbatim.

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I never knocked.
I know. You don't know Jesus, because you deny His deity.

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I shut the door and ran the other way
I see this, as you don't accept the real Jesus.

Quote:
God didn't give up
I know He hasn't....precisely why you are still here at CD and possibly other places.

Quote:
he dragged me back kicking and screaming, weeping and gnashing my teeth all the way
You still are doing these things.

Quote:
Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone COMES to God they believe he exists? People who don't believe in God don't earnest seek him? or do they in fact end up earnestly seeking him while kicking and screaming?
No you are incorrect. First, this message in Hebrews 11 is about Israelites from Adam onwards, and Paul makes it abundantly clear at the end:

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Quote:
James 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Isn't this kinda obvious? If you ask and have doubt then how do you expect to withstand the wind? Either believe fully or don't. If you halfway believe and ask will your prayer be heard? I believe my wishy washy half-believe prayer was answered once I finished throwing my fit.
I agree with you. Yet you still have doubts as to who Jesus really is.

Quote:
And the last one is 1 John 3:23 which you will see is also about the apostles getting what they ask for. The apostles seem to need to show the people signs and miracles so they would be convinced Jesus was sent by the true God and not a false prophet. Do you have that problem now? That you are unable to do miracles because you don't fully believe? And if you DO fully believe, WHY CANT you do miracles or get exactly what you ask for?
The gift of miralces given to the firstfruits are different from what we have today living in the New Heavens and Earth IMO, however miracles still do happen all the time you know.

Quote:
So given your preterist roots I figure you should agree with me because Jesus didn't tell US this (although their are obvious spiritual tips here), he told the disciples this: "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." (John 16:23)
I will stop here, because, In that day...refers to the Day of the Lord, and after it as well. In the Age to Come, Christians will no longer need to ask for the signs and miracles should they perform to prove its power. So yes, it proves my point that although miracles still do happen, they are less frequent than they were in the first century church.

Quote:
So they "must believe" or destruction (70AD) would be on their heads... raining down on them. He who overcomes (by believing) will not be harmed....by the "lake of fire." Does that apply to us now?
Absolutley. Death and Hades are euphemisms of the Old Covenant, the Old Man and Creation which is thrown into the lake of fire, just as those in the New Heavens and Earth suffer the same fate BECAUSE they are without Christ, and die as the captor died.

Quote:
Please show me where it says that one must believe in the NH&E.. then I may have to agree with you, otherwise the scripture (in preterist light) is clear when taken in context.... The disciples/apostles had a tough job and HAD to believe fully!... however this doesn't apply to us in that urgent sense, nor is it a "rule" of salvation.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. What is hoped for is eternal life with Christ, and faith is required to recieve the hope we are all granted for our allegiance in Christ. I would reccomened a lengthy study of the minor and major prophets reagrding the New Heavens and Earth, and much of Peter's and Paul's work regarding life in the age to come, and the fact that righteousness in living was vehemountly stressed in their life post parousia. But if you really need a quick refresher, Rev 21 is pretty plain.

Quote:
What do you mean Preterist principles still apply in the new heaven and earth? Preterist principles are simply that you must take into consideration the date and time/ happenings when the book was written. If John talks to Peter, he is simply talking to Peter not to us. "This generation" means the one in which the sentence was written.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
Read above paragraph. Would you like a online study of Don K Preston's work on living in the New Heavens and Earth and the pre-requisites for salvation in that age?
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Old 06-26-2010, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I am an Israelite. So yes, it does exist.
The resurrection was solely for the Israel under the Law.
What law? Everything is made new... The new law or the old law? don't forget to cite your verse. You are not an Israelite (actually I don't know you may be 1/100th Israelite ) Israelite (the word) refers to a bloodline. You mean spiritual Israel? Tell me, if Christ rules the world as King Davids heir on God's throne... why isn't the world spiritual Israel? Jesus came into the WORLD to save the WORLD and ALL things are made new.... even the law... right?? You superimpose this view you have of a "chosen" people. The WORLD was chosen.

Quote:
Yes it is for the whole world, but the scriptures are clear how this atonment becomes effective in the man or woman.
Atonement?

Theology. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of god and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ. (Webster's Online Dictionary)

The meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation. Thus it is used to denote the effect which flows from the death of Christ. (Easton's Bible Dictionary)

How can you limit reconciliation if the scripture clearly states that Christ was reconciling the world to himself?

...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:19)

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Rom. 11:15)

OLD REAL Israel rejects and THEIR acceptance is "life from the dead".... yet you apply this to the NH&E?

Here it is Israel's rejection that facilitates the reconciliation of the world. Are you saying that it MEANS old Israel's rejection creates a reconciliation of spiritual Israel? That is not what it actually states. The World is reconciled. Atonement for ALL sins on the cross not just a few.

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Yes it is. The scriptures point this out verbatim.
Applying to whom? What part says to you that knocking pertains to the average Joe and those in the transition between old and new?

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I know. You don't know Jesus, because you deny His deity.
I see this, as you don't accept the real Jesus.
I know He hasn't....precisely why you are still here at CD and possibly other places. You still are doing these things.
With that kind of thinking you will never be open to the truth. Sometimes the truth is revealed through means you wouldn't expect... like a stranger.

Quote:
No you are incorrect. First, this message in Hebrews 11 is about Israelites from Adam onwards, and Paul makes it abundantly clear at the end:

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Who is the THEY in "that they without us should not be made perfect"?
They are not the us. Yet you seem to think this is for everyone? Was it a generic THEY?

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I agree with you. Yet you still have doubts as to who Jesus really is.


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The gift of miralces given to the firstfruits are different from what we have today living in the New Heavens and Earth IMO, however miracles still do happen all the time you know.
Thanks. They ARE different. The FAITH that is needed for the gift of miracles was ABSOLUTELY necessary. However, THAT LEVEL of faith is NOT ABSOLUTELY necessary for simple salvation or NONE of us would be saved without being able to perform miracles.

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I will stop here, because, In that day...refers to the Day of the Lord, and after it as well.
I agree

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In the Age to Come, Christians will no longer need to ask for the signs and miracles should they perform to prove its power. So yes, it proves my point that although miracles still do happen, they are less frequent than they were in the first century church.
So then HAVING ABSOLUTE FAITH and BELIEF applied to those who NEEDED to ask for REAL signs and REAL miracles and is not a condition of salvation.

Quote:
Absolutley. Death and Hades are euphemisms of the Old Covenant, the Old Man and Creation which is thrown into the lake of fire, just as those in the New Heavens and Earth suffer the same fate BECAUSE they are without Christ, and die as the captor died.
Those in the NH&E suffer the same fate even though it is completely different? How then is the NEW not just like the OLD? The state of the NEW (in your explanation) seems to be fear of "lake of fire" punishment just as the OLD was. What exactly did JESUS do (to make things new) in your mind?


Quote:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. What is hoped for is eternal life with Christ, and faith is required to recieve the hope we are all granted for our allegiance in Christ.
Why would someone need to HOPE for eternal life when eternal life (as defined by JESUS) means to LIVE your life knowing God and his son. Don't you KNOW GOD and HIS SON and so Don't you HAVE eternal life NOW?

Quote:
I would reccomened a lengthy study of the minor and major prophets reagrding the New Heavens and Earth, and much of Peter's and Paul's work regarding life in the age to come, and the fact that righteousness in living was vehemountly stressed in their life post parousia. But if you really need a quick refresher, Rev 21 is pretty plain.
Well let's focus on Rev. 21 then.

I especially like these points:
  • 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
  • 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!”
  • 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Notice that the HIM who is thirsty isn't even telling anyone he is thirsty... he isn't knocking or asking for a drink. The thirsty will thirst no more. The crying will cry no more. IT IS DONE!

Quote:
Read above paragraph. Would you like a online study of Don K Preston's work on living in the New Heavens and Earth and the pre-requisites for salvation in that age?
Why don't you list a few and we can discuss them if that is what you believe. I don't see ANY prerequisites for salvation in that age anywhere in scripture... but you just let me know.
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