U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-10-2010, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,268,466 times
Reputation: 401

Advertisements

Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

Belief in universal salvation is almost as old as Christianity itself and may be associated with early Gnostic teachers. The first clearly universalist writings, however, date from the Greek church fathers, most notably Clement of Alexandria, his student Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. Universalism was taught in the School that Origen presided over at Alexandria in the extreme form that all fallen beings, not excluding the Devil and his angels, who do not repent in this world, shall pass through prolonged chastisement in the world to come. In the end, through these sufferings and the instruction of superior spirits, they will undergo a change and be brought to bliss. Origen's views were strongly opposed by Augustine of Hippo and were condemned by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 543). At the Reformation the sect known as Anabaptists adopted this view as regards both men and devils, and John Calvin wrote a tract condemning it.

This doctrine is congenial to human nature. Most unbelievers think that when someone dies they go to heaven. What do people usually say when they lose a loved one? "We know they're in a better place now." This doctrine goes back to what the serpent had to say to our first parents: "Ye shall not surely die." God says that sin leads to death, but we don't want to believe that, we'd rather believe the serpent.

Universalists all quote Scripture texts in support of their views, and by the manipulation of texts removed from their context, they make out a plausible case for the positions they hold. There are many verses that use "all" and "world" in relation to redemption. When looking at these verses, we must keep in mind the primary rule of hermeneutics, the "analogy of faith" - the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.

http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/colossians/1_20 (broken link).

David Curtis refutes many verses that UR uses to support their view. More at link.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-10-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,258 posts, read 1,824,839 times
Reputation: 1382
No way. NOBODY interprets scripture differently. It's all so clearly cut.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2010, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,991,955 times
Reputation: 425
Here is a good link for those that don't mind doing a little studying of their own.

The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things.

The Restitution of All Things, Andrew Jukes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 03:52 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 929,334 times
Reputation: 193
Quote:
This doctrine is congenial to human nature. Most unbelievers think that when someone dies they go to heaven. What do people usually say when they lose a loved one? "We know they're in a better place now."
the doctrine of hell is equally congenial to human nature; while most people believe, no matter which religion they have, that they and their beloved ones will go to heaven, they very readily accept the idea that many others will go to hell.

Universalism is contrary to the human nature, you have to be no universalist to believe you and your loved ones go to heaven; but as an universalist you also have to believe that your worst enemy will got to heaven alike, and this is not the least congenial to human nature.

I think a French philosopher said, "hell are the others"

Most unbelievers btw believe that they simply perish and that there is no afterlife at all.

Quote:
This doctrine goes back to what the serpent had to say to our first parents: "Ye shall not surely die."
This equally applies to "eternal tormentism" and "immortal soulism", there is no death in this doctrines either; but you are an annihilationist if I remember right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 03:57 AM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,991,955 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the doctrine of hell is equally congenial to human nature; while most people believe, no matter which religion they have, that they and their beloved ones will go to heaven, they very readily accept the idea that many others will go to hell.

Universalism is contrary to the human nature, you have to be no universalist to belive you and your loved ones go to heaven; but as an universalist you also have to believe that your worst enemy will got to heaven alike, and this is not the least congenial to human nature.

I think a French philosopher said, "hell are the others"


Very true. Who wants to see their worst enemies healthy and happy?

(Nice to see you are still here, Sven)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,945 posts, read 7,250,635 times
Reputation: 4114
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Who wants to see their worst enemies healthy and happy?
That would be Jesus.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,328 posts, read 12,597,595 times
Reputation: 4395
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
This doctrine is congenial to human nature. Most unbelievers think that when someone dies they go to heaven. What do people usually say when they lose a loved one? "We know they're in a better place now." This doctrine goes back to what the serpent had to say to our first parents: "Ye shall not surely die." God says that sin leads to death, but we don't want to believe that, we'd rather believe the serpent.
Indeed, indeed, it is so much easier to believe the serpent. We hear the "We know they're in a better place now" all the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 07:58 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,904,183 times
Reputation: 647
Why do people fight against UR so much? If you study it objectively, you will see it has more biblical support than eternal torment, especially when you consider the mistranslations of aion/aionios and "hell". Eternal torment falls apart when you realize these mistranslations.

Yet people want to embrace eternal torment and disparage UR.

I think it is because like Sven said, natural human inclination is to wish the worst for your enemies. No one wants to see Hitler reconciled to God. He needs to get what he deserves - which is apparently to be tortured in fire forever.

People like the idea of eternal torment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 08:31 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,904,183 times
Reputation: 647
Wow, this is so clear to me now.

Natural man hates his enemies. He wants to go to war with them, put them through pain, and murder them. Eternal torment says man's enemies will be in pain forever - and a man will either forget about or not care about his enemies forever.

Jesus says to love your enemies. Bless those that curse you and be kind to those that hurt you so that you can be like God above. Jesus died for his enemies while they still hated Him. Universal salvation says Jesus will save and reconcile his enemies - they will no longer be enemies but will be reconciled back to God.

Which is the doctrine of man and which is the doctrine of God?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2010, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,945 posts, read 7,250,635 times
Reputation: 4114
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
People like the idea of eternal torment.
Quote:
Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, does not behave itself unseemly, seeks not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil; rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. (1 Cor 13:4-8)
After participating in this forum for a period of time, it's easy to see that members lack the attributes we call the "fruits of the Spirit"; and since we are prone to make God in our image, we lower the Almighty to a level undeserving of earthly royalty - much less the Holy One of Israel.

Though He is unaffected by our misrepresentation, we ourselves suffer from this gross error because what we worship, we become.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top