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Old 05-12-2010, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
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I do not believe in heaven, the "blessed realm of immortal souls", I believe in the world to come after the ressurection
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:41 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,823,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The thing to remember is that we are one with the eternally self existent one.

A small, self-centered mind believes that this universe is all God has going on and that our stories are the centerpiece of eternity.

Please seek to free your minds from the tiny constructs we all were born into.
Basis please.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,823,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
  1. I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.
  2. Who ever said heaven is not eternal? We will put on immortality so will never die.
  3. Those descriptions from the OT/NT are good enough for me.
  4. Actually Jesus did. He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to heaven yet. Then He told her He is ascending to His Father and their Father and His God and their God. After He ascended He came back and then told Thomas to touch the nail prints and the hole in His side.
  5. Who ever said Jesus doesn't have the power to say to those on the left to "Depart from Me"? I believe He does and will do that to those bad nations that mistreated His brethren during their day of tribulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.
You simply saying "I believe" doesn't = proof. What basis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Who ever said heaven is not eternal
Anyone who denies that eternal condemation isn't eternal. In most instances when Jesus speaks of eternity it is in the thought process of comparison.

Presuming the argument that "eternal" [everlasting ect.] is only considered an "age" [aion] is true, then what is basis for heaven being nothing other than temporary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Those descriptions from the OT/NT are good enough for me.
On what basis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually Jesus did.
If heaven is eternal, how did he get out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Who ever said Jesus doesn't have the power to say to those on the left to "Depart from Me"?...to those bad nations that mistreated His brethren
Universalists do. No one ultimatly departs (I am to understand you that "bad nations" are made up of "bad people", that bad people aren't his bretheren....) since universalism is to be considered true.

Which brings it back to the question...

If you truly want people to believe that universalism is the truth, what is the basis to believe that anybody will exist in heaven...let alone eternally?

Base the "proof" in the positive for existing eternally in heaven....not by twisting this into an argument against hell.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:45 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,687,516 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
What basis do URers have for believing existing eternally in heaven


Your message does not follow along with your thread title.


From my life, the basis is a faith based on what I understood as a young child. As a child I could only sense things, I did not have words to put to those things I sense. Others when I was little did a very good Job of deciding for me that what I sensed was "devilish". But they do not have that hold over me now so I have returned to that basic simplicity of knowledge.

The bible is what I use to relate to others what I believe.


That is the basis.

Your message body asks for proof, there is no proof and having a basis for believing something and proof are mutually exclusive.


So what are your motives?

Do you want a basis, or are you expecting proof?
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:49 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius

  1. I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.
  2. Who ever said heaven is not eternal? We will put on immortality so will never die.
  3. Those descriptions from the OT/NT are good enough for me.
  4. Actually Jesus did. He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to heaven yet. Then He told her He is ascending to His Father and their Father and His God and their God. After He ascended He came back and then told Thomas to touch the nail prints and the hole in His side.
  5. Who ever said Jesus doesn't have the power to say to those on the left to "Depart from Me"? I believe He does and will do that to those bad nations that mistreated His brethren during their day of tribulation.
Quote:
1. I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.
Quote:
twin replied: You simply saying "I believe" doesn't = proof. What basis
You didn't say Universalists had to "prove" what they believe. You just made false statement that Universalists believe in your #1. statement "no proof of heaven."
"Our Father which art in Heaven." Is that good enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Who ever said heaven is not eternal
Quote:
twin replied: Anyone who denies that eternal condemation isn't eternal. In most instances when Jesus speaks of eternity it is in the thought process of comparison.

Presuming the argument that "eternal" [everlasting ect.] is only considered an "age" [aion] is true, then what is basis for heaven being nothing other than temporary.
Well of course eternal condemnation is eternal if such a thing exists. But why would it prove that if condemnation is not eternal that heaven can't be eternal? That does not make sense.

There is no scripture which states that "heaven is eternal." So why try to build a theology on something the bible is silent on?

Heaven is never said to be for an age. Heaven is likewise never said to be eternal. In Matthew 25:46 the contrast is not between heaven and hell but between the aionios life enjoyed by the nations and the aionion chastening the goat nations get. Both are temporary or "pertaining to the aion.


Originally Posted by Eusebius
Those descriptions from the OT/NT are good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Those descriptions from the OT/NT are good enough for me.
Quote:
On what basis
On the basis that I say they are good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Actually Jesus did.
Quote:
twin asked: If heaven is eternal, how did he get out?
That's like asking, if heaven is eternal, how did God send His son into the world to save sinners? Or if heaven is eternal, how does the New City Jerusalem descend out of heaven and land on the earth (Rev.21:2). Obviously both can be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Who ever said Jesus doesn't have the power to say to those on the left to "Depart from Me"?...to those bad nations that mistreated His brethren
twin replied:
Quote:
Universalists do. No one ultimatly departs (I am to understand you that "bad nations" are made up of "bad people", that bad people aren't his bretheren....) since universalism is to be considered true.
Look, twin, I just said I am a Universalist and I said I do believe He will tell those bad nations to depart from Him. Obviously those bad nations do depart from Him and universalism is true. Both are true. The departing is not eternal. It is aionion.

Quote:
Which brings it back to the question...

If you truly want people to believe that universalism is the truth, what is the basis to believe that anybody will exist in heaven...let alone eternally?
Well, no bible says Heaven is eternal and no Bible says people will exist in heaven eternally either. No Bible says heaven is not eternal either. I can only go by what the Bible tells me. I'm sure you would agree that is a good standard to go by, right?

Quote:
Base the "proof" in the positive for existing eternally in heaven....not by twisting this into an argument against hell.
you first. Your translation must say that people will exist eternally in heaven. Please give me book, chapter and verse.
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,823,424 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Your message does not follow along with your thread title.


From my life, the basis is a faith based on what I understood as a young child. As a child I could only sense things, I did not have words to put to those things I sense. Others when I was little did a very good Job of deciding for me that what I sensed was "devilish". But they do not have that hold over me now so I have returned to that basic simplicity of knowledge.

The bible is what I use to relate to others what I believe.


That is the basis.

Your message body asks for proof, there is no proof and having a basis for believing something and proof are mutually exclusive.


So what are your motives?

Do you want a basis, or are you expecting proof?
The Bible is your basis....what Bible? I thought the Bible has been mistranslated \ added to by Moses.

Why do you discern that "eternal" [or everlasting] was translated correctly when it comes to existing in heaven.

What makes you think I have a motive.........
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,823,424 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I am a universalist and I believe there is a heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You didn't say Universalists had to "prove" what they believe. You just made false statement that Universalists believe in your #1. statement "no proof of heaven."
Then show evidence to the contrary...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"Our Father which art in Heaven." Is that good enough?
No because Jesus said many things, why should this one be true and others not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
you first. Your translation must say that people will exist eternally in heaven. Please give me book, chapter and verse.
No.... this is your opportunity. Please give me book, chapter and verse that makes #1 a false statement.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:03 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,687,516 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Bible is your basis....what Bible? I thought the Bible has been mistranslated \ added to by Moses.

Why do you discern that "eternal" [or everlasting] was translated correctly when it comes to existing in heaven.

What makes you think I have a motive.........

It is true that I once used the mistranslation argument, but I realized that there was more to the words being used so I do not maintain the stance that there are any significant mistranslations and we can learn from them all.

I also have never written a comment saying Heaven is eternal. so the point does not apply to me.

Everyone has a motive, it can be a good one or a bad one.

My motive is to share what I believe in such a way that I draw challenges to what I believe.

I pointed out a difference between having a basis for believing something and proof. They can be mutually exclusive, but proof can be a basis; having a basis for something is not necessarily proof.

Which do you expect people to present?
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,688,732 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Bible is your basis....what Bible? I thought the Bible has been mistranslated \ added to by Moses.

Why do you discern that "eternal" [or everlasting] was translated correctly when it comes to existing in heaven.

What makes you think I have a motive.........
This is exactly what I have been thinking. If some parts have been mistranslated, why do they believe in the Bible at all? Who says the rest isn't mistranslated? I think all universalists should answer this question because it's definitely valid.

Oops! I didn't see the other thread on mistranslations.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,455,722 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
It is true that I once used the mistranslation argument, but I realized that there was more to the words being used so I do not maintain the stance that there are any significant mistranslations and we can learn from them all.

I also have never written a comment saying Heaven is eternal. so the point does not apply to me.

Everyone has a motive, it can be a good one or a bad one.

My motive is to share what I believe in such a way that I draw challenges to what I believe.

I pointed out a difference between having a basis for believing something and proof. They can be mutually exclusive, but proof can be a basis; having a basis for something is not necessarily proof.

Which do you expect people to present?


"Which do you expect people to present?"...................exactly what each and everyone is "presenting" right now! You will know them by their fruits! I trust God to do the sorting.....


Carry on if you must. We all have a work to do, amen?
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