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Old 05-13-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
So the argument here is that if hell isn't eternal, then heaven isn't either? Come on, that's lame.
It's not if you're going to be intellectually honest.

I do sure hope that through your tears of joy that you realize the significance of agreeing with people stating that believers have two destinies....none of which is heaven.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:02 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Let me start over and address the OP directly.


1. There is no "proof" of heaven

The bible speaks of "heaven", "heavens", "Kingdom of heaven", etc. That is why we accept the teaching of "heaven", although lumping all these together under one word may lead to confusion. The bible also speaks of eonian life, the resurrection, immortality, and God being all in all.

2. since eternal isn't eternal or everlasting it's going to be temporary (an age)

Non-sequitur - it does not follow. Define what "heaven" you are talking about. I couldn't actually find any scripture where "heaven" is described as "eternal" - I just did a quick search on biblegateway so I could have missed it. Besides, the bible does say "heaven and earth will pass away". Again, which heaven will pass away?

3. Our only descriptions and knowledge of heaven is from OT\NT

Sure.

4. No human has ever came back from heaven to earth with "proof"

Sure. Some have claimed to have gone there and come back (NDEs), but its hard to verify or understand what they experienced.

5. Since Jesus doesn't have the power to say to those on the left to "depart from me"...why does he have the power to invite people on his right to heaven?

This is just a flat out untruth or misrepresentation. Jesus does tell those on His left to "depart". Does it say they will never return to God? And conversely, where does scripture say anything about "inviting" people to "heaven"? Yes, there is the parable of the wedding banquet, but that is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven.



This is a complicated topic. Using a generic term like "heaven" to cover all these different aspects only confuses things.
Legoman,

No offense..but you're making this complicated.

"Does it say they will never return to God?" Yes, more than on one occasion. But that is a mute point.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,783,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It's not if you're going to be intellectually honest.

I do sure hope that through your tears of joy that you realize the significance of agreeing with people stating that believers have two destinies....none of which is heaven.
You'll have to rephrase that last statement....it's not making a lick of sense to me.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:21 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But that is a mute point.
Is the point deaf as well? I think the word is "moot".
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:34 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Legoman,

No offense..but you're making this complicated.

"Does it say they will never return to God?" Yes, more than on one occasion. But that is a mute point.
twin.spin, you are not providing any scripture, so I don't know why you are thinking "heaven" (however you define it) would end if there is no eternal hell. I don't even know if you are talking about "heaven" or "the heavens" or the "Kingdom of Heaven" (they are different).

This conversation would be less confusing if you would provide a scripture about "heaven" and ask how/why a URer interprets it a certain way.


And you will have to show me where it says some people never return to God, especially if we are working within the context of your OP ie. "eternal" is a mistranslation.

Last edited by legoman; 05-13-2010 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Is the point deaf as well? I think the word is "moot".
oopps...so much for spell check
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:13 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
twin.spin, you are not providing any scripture, so I don't know why you are thinking "heaven" (however you define it) would end if there is no eternal hell. I don't even know if you are talking about "heaven" or "the heavens" or the "Kingdom of Heaven" (they are different).

This conversation would be less confusing if you would provide a scripture about "heaven" and ask how/why a URer interprets it a certain why.


And you will have to show me where it says some people never return to God, especially if we are working within the context of your OP ie. "eternal" is a mistranslation.
Which ever definition is meant by this:

"Our Father who art in heaven"....there is only one heaven which "Our Father is in"

The same "heaven" which the Father is in, when Jesus said:

John 16:28
"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

And since Jesus is goint back to the "Father who art in heaven".....Jesus said he will take us to be with him [Jesus] that were he is, we will also be.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Heaven...
  • the place where the Father is
  • the same place where Jesus said he is going back to the Father
  • Since Jesus went back to the Father, that is where Jesus is
  • Since that is where Jesus is now...is where he is taking us that you also may be where I am
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:23 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,430,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Which ever definition is meant by this:

"Our Father who art in heaven"....there is only one heaven which "Our Father is in"

The same "heaven" which the Father is in, when Jesus said:

John 16:28
"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

And since Jesus is goint back to the "Father who art in heaven".....Jesus said he will take us to be with him [Jesus] that were he is, we will also be.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Heaven...
  • the place where the Father is
  • the same place where Jesus said he is going back to the Father
  • Since Jesus went back to the Father, that is where Jesus is
  • Since that is where Jesus is now...is where he is taking us that you also may be where I am
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Ok thanks. I'm not sure 2 Tim 4:18 is exactly the same as the other heaven reference you posted, because it is talking about the Kingdom, but lets leave that alone for now.

Why do you think heaven (where the Father is) would end, if there is no eternal hell?
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,587,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Is the point deaf as well? I think the word is "moot".
I'm going to have to cast a moot spirit OUT of this thread!!!
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,395,468 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
twin.spin, you are not providing any scripture, so I don't know why you are thinking "heaven" (however you define it) would end if there is no eternal hell. I don't even know if you are talking about "heaven" or "the heavens" or the "Kingdom of Heaven" (they are different).

This conversation would be less confusing if you would provide a scripture about "heaven" and ask how/why a URer interprets it a certain way.


And you will have to show me where it says some people never return to God, especially if we are working within the context of your OP ie. "eternal" is a mistranslation.
I just started a thread on words in the Bible. It might be of some help if we all knew the different ways words are being used and their definitions. They certainly aren't defined the same way every time they are used in the Bible.
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