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Old 05-13-2010, 10:48 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Ok thanks. I'm not sure 2 Tim 4:18 is exactly the same as the other heaven reference you posted, because it is talking about the Kingdom, but lets leave that alone for now.

Why do you think heaven (where the Father is) would end, if there is no eternal hell?
In the NIV and the KJV the phrase "heavenly kingdom" is used only once... that is in 2 Tim 4:18.

And being the word "heaven" is in the word "heavenly", just maybe you could consider that the two are the same place where the Father is. Coincidental?......I would say not. Another words, there is only one Father who resides in one heaven(ly) kingdom.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:21 PM
 
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Religion is "afterlife" orientated: it talks about all things that matter are in the "afterlife", but it requires real life humans do things concrete in real life ...

When are people going to realize there is nothing in religion is real?
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
In the NIV and the KJV the phrase "heavenly kingdom" is used only once... that is in 2 Tim 4:18.

And being the word "heaven" is in the word "heavenly", just maybe you could consider that the two are the same place where the Father is. Coincidental?......I would say not. Another words, there is only one Father who resides in one heaven(ly) kingdom.
Certainly the Kingdom (the kingdom of heaven) and Heaven are related.

But why do you think heaven would end, if there is no eternal hell? I'm trying to understand what your basis is for thinking this. ie. what is the point of this thread?
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:43 AM
 
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twin, in your OP you state:

2. since eternal isn't eternal or everlasting it's going to be temporary (an age)

Perhaps what you are missing is this: just because a specific word may be mistranslated/misinterpreted as "eternal", it does not mean the concept of eternity doesn't exist.
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:29 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
twin, in your OP you state:

2. since eternal isn't eternal or everlasting it's going to be temporary (an age)

Perhaps what you are missing is this: just because a specific word may be mistranslated/misinterpreted as "eternal", it does not mean the concept of eternity doesn't exist.
Like you said, the point is simple. Just because a specific word that is thought to be mistranslated/misinterpreted (which is not) does not mean eternity exists.

I believe if I remember correctly, ultimatly the only basis that is given for believing came down to four basic answers: (summed up)
  1. Jesus said so
  2. The bible
  3. eternal [everlasting] is only mistranslated/misinterpreted when it's not about heaven
  4. Logic
Don't have the time right now to expand on this...will later
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Like you said, the point is simple. Just because a specific word that is thought to be mistranslated/misinterpreted (which is not) does not mean eternity exists.


I believe if I remember correctly, ultimatly the only basis that is given for believing came down to four basic answers: (summed up)
  1. Jesus said so
  2. The bible
  3. eternal [everlasting] is only mistranslated/misinterpreted when it's not about heaven
  4. Logic
Don't have the time right now to expand on this...will later
  1. Jesus said so as long as jesus' words were translated properly
  2. The bible as long as it was translated properly
  3. eternal is always a mistranslation of aionios and is never used of heaven.
  4. logic helps as long as you have God's spirit and are not soulish for "the soulish man is not receiving that which is of the spirit of God and indeed is not able."
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It's not if you're going to be intellectually honest.

I do sure hope that through your tears of joy that you realize the significance of agreeing with people stating that believers have two destinies....none of which is heaven.


Good point, believers of Hell argue amongst themselves all the time resulting in 33,000 sects of belief that in general each think they are making it to a place called heaven and everyone that doesn't agree with them "might", "has a chance" "could", or probably won't.

What is lame is they all scratch their heads in their separate groups wondering why more people don't believe what they do.


I saw the significance of agreeing with people in that realm of belief a while back. That is why I left, no regrets and have gotten closer to the Lord since doing so, contradicting anyone who says what I believe will cause bad behavior and less caring about God.

With that said I do appreciate the point you have made in this thread, it is a point that faith cannot be proven and our perceptions of scripture hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of the depths of truth yet to come.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Like you said, the point is simple. Just because a specific word that is thought to be mistranslated/misinterpreted (which is not) does not mean eternity exists.

I believe if I remember correctly, ultimatly the only basis that is given for believing came down to four basic answers: (summed up)
  1. Jesus said so
  2. The bible
  3. eternal [everlasting] is only mistranslated/misinterpreted when it's not about heaven
  4. Logic
Don't have the time right now to expand on this...will later
Ok cool, I will await your response.

Regrarding #3 above:

3. eternal [everlasting] is only mistranslated/misinterpreted when it's not about heaven

No, I didn't say or imply that, and I don't think anyone else did either.

To be honest I don't know where you are getting this idea from, because as far as I know "heaven" is not described with the word aionios (everlasting/eternal/age-abiding/however you want to translate it) anywhere in scripture - I could have missed it though.... That's why I said you should post a scripture that you think would show heaven is not eternal, and then we have something concrete we can discuss.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:44 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
With that said I do appreciate the point you have made in this thread, it is a point that faith cannot be proven and our perceptions of scripture hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of the depths of truth yet to come.
"it is a point that faith cannot be proven"

Are you aware that it can not be proven (today) that Solomon's temple existed, or that Israel was in captivity by Egypt. God's Word is the best source for written information.

That is one of the reasons for this OP. There has to be a absolute in faith. Either Jesus (God's Word) is absolute or in it's place logic\reason.

What I mean is that Jesus (God's Word) has to be absolutly true...all of it; or if not, then ultimatly logic\reason becomes it. That's because if God's Word is absolutly true, then God's Word will [at many times] be against logic\reason.

So it is with heaven and eternity. Either you base it on God's Word that is absolute, or on logic\reason.

** It would be worth noting that the "33,000 sects" is a disputed number, mainly because:

"Between denominations, theologians, and comparative religionists there are considerable disagreements about which groups can be properly called Christian, disagreements arising primarily from doctrinal differences between groups." ( quoted from wikipedia) ......... (groups like LDS and JW's)



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Old 05-15-2010, 01:08 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,852,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Ok cool, I will await your response.

Regrarding #3 above:

3. eternal [everlasting] is only mistranslated/misinterpreted when it's not about heaven

No, I didn't say or imply that, and I don't think anyone else did either.

To be honest I don't know where you are getting this idea from, because as far as I know "heaven" is not described with the word aionios (everlasting/eternal/age-abiding/however you want to translate it) anywhere in scripture - I could have missed it though.... That's why I said you should post a scripture that you think would show heaven is not eternal, and then we have something concrete we can discuss.
That is the point. God's Word does speak of heaven as eternal. Some verses has heaven being called "heavenly kingdom", "kingdom of God", "paradise", "paradise of God" and others.

And why does person believes this because? (heaven is eternal)...for no other reason other than "Jesus said so". This is the dilemma with the UR position....either all of Jesus' word [the Bible] is absolutly the truth or human reasoning is. One or the other, but not some of each. The only way there can be a eternal heaven, but not a eternal hell [damnation]...is if Jesus isn't absolutly true in everything he said [even if it appears to be contradicting]. If a person takes the liberty to deny the eternal damnation\hell words of Jesus, then a different person can with the same liberty, deny the words of Jesus that speak to the eternity of heaven.

Which prompted the question...what basis do UR have for believing (people will be) existing eternally in heaven? [when the liberty is taken to deny the absolutle truth of Jesus' words about unbelievers existing eternally in hell after being judged]

Last edited by twin.spin; 05-15-2010 at 01:11 AM.. Reason: clarity
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