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Old 05-15-2010, 01:45 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,565,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Which prompted the question...what basis do UR have for believing (people will be) existing eternally in heaven?
I gave you a scriptural basis:
  • 1 Thesselonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Quote:
[when the liberty is taken to deny the absolutle truth of Jesus' words about unbelievers existing eternally in hell after being judged]
Christ's words are true, it's the translation of aionion and olam that are the issue. Translators are not Christ.

Why didn't the translators translate olam (LXX aionion) as "everlasting" in this verse?
  • Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the "everlasting" wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Here is the whole passage:
  • Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Why do Hebrew scholars say that olam does not mean everlasting?

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:16 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That is the point. God's Word does speak of heaven as eternal. Some verses has heaven being called "heavenly kingdom", "kingdom of God", "paradise", "paradise of God" and others.

And why does person believes this because? (heaven is eternal)...for no other reason other than "Jesus said so". This is the dilemma with the UR position....either all of Jesus' word [the Bible] is absolutly the truth or human reasoning is. One or the other, but not some of each. The only way there can be a eternal heaven, but not a eternal hell [damnation]...is if Jesus isn't absolutly true in everything he said [even if it appears to be contradicting]. If a person takes the liberty to deny the eternal damnation\hell words of Jesus, then a different person can with the same liberty, deny the words of Jesus that speak to the eternity of heaven.

Which prompted the question...what basis do UR have for believing (people will be) existing eternally in heaven? [when the liberty is taken to deny the absolutle truth of Jesus' words about unbelievers existing eternally in hell after being judged]
twin.spin, you didn't provide a scripture that says heaven is 'aionios'. Yes I realize the words 'heaven', 'heavenly kingdom', etc are in the bible, no one denies that. And Yes I believe Jesus is absolutely true in everything He said. If you listen to what URs are saying, we are not dismissing the so-called 'eternal' damnation words of Jesus. We just understand that they are not 'eternal' because they rely on the Greek word 'aionios'.

The point you miss is this. Let me simplify it down:
1. UR proposes the Greek 'aionios' is not the English word 'eternal'.
2. This can be shown to be true by studying how the word 'aionios' is used.
3. heaven is never described as 'aionios'

Therefore there is NO problem. You are trying to create a problem where none exists. Now we can (and have) debated about point #2. But for your OP to work, you have to show me how point #3 is false.

That's why I said you should post a scripture that you think would show heaven is not eternal, and then we have something concrete we can discuss.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:20 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
If a person takes the liberty to deny the eternal damnation\hell words of Jesus, then a different person can with the same liberty, deny the words of Jesus that speak to the eternity of heaven.
Surely you know the debate about the "hell" words and realize that "hell" is a huge mistranslation from four different words: sheol, hades, gehenna, tartarus.

This is easily verified by looking at a concordance, no one can deny this.

So it is not Jesus' words we are disputing, but the words that English translators chose to use.

Furthermore, I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of the 'eternity' of heaven by using the word 'aionios' - that is the point of contention.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:26 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
I gave you a scriptural basis:
  • 1 Thesselonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Yes! This is a good example that shows we will exist eternally with God, and it doesn't use the words aion or aionios.


twin.spin, you have to realize it is not Jesus words we are disputing, our dispute is with how a few Greek words are translated into English: aion, aionios, and the "hell" words - sheol, hades, gehenna, tartarus. If you study it objectively you will see there are issues with how those words are translated.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:25 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"it is a point that faith cannot be proven"

Are you aware that it can not be proven (today) that Solomon's temple existed, or that Israel was in captivity by Egypt. God's Word is the best source for written information.

That is one of the reasons for this OP. There has to be a absolute in faith. Either Jesus (God's Word) is absolute or in it's place logic\reason.

What I mean is that Jesus (God's Word) has to be absolutly true...all of it; or if not, then ultimatly logic\reason becomes it. That's because if God's Word is absolutly true, then God's Word will [at many times] be against logic\reason.

So it is with heaven and eternity. Either you base it on God's Word that is absolute, or on logic\reason.

** It would be worth noting that the "33,000 sects" is a disputed number, mainly because:

"Between denominations, theologians, and comparative religionists there are considerable disagreements about which groups can be properly called Christian, disagreements arising primarily from doctrinal differences between groups." ( quoted from wikipedia) ......... (groups like LDS and JW's)



I understand the number dispute, but that doesn't change the point.

You can go to one church and they will claim their specific church is the only one that has the authority to preach the gospel and they have quite a list of criteria for salvation, you can go to another church and they will have another set of criteria and claim that half of their own congregation is going to hell not to mention all ther other churches that can be labeled "Christian" who can't actually figure out and agree what salvation is or what it takes to "absolutely know" that your "gonna make it".

But as far as "Gods word" being absolutely true, actually, you can find errors in the written word and they are insignificant to the truth of the message it intends to convey.

Logic and reason also can be proven to find value in something that is technically flawed.
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