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Old 05-17-2010, 08:40 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

And, Ilene, you are learning rather quickly! Nice job! If you need any help figuring out something, just let me know. This is all kind of new to me, too, but I ordered The Restitution Of All Things, which has helped. I am still reading through a mountain of other material, so sitting on the forums here kind of takes valuable time up, but I'm trying to help whoever I can.
Thanks Herefornow!! I need all the help I can get so thanks for offering! I'm still trying to piece it all together but it's coming slowly but surely. I spend too much time here at the forum too but I'm trying to change that. But it is also a way to learn too so it's not all bad.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,915 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
People have been debating this forever. That stop light took forever to change. I was waiting on that elevator forever.

What exactly does forever mean again?
I think modern hyperbole is much more prevalent in that sense than ancient, although I also don't think the ancient Jews and Christians possessed a concept of philosophical eternity. Literally, the Hebrew word translated "forever" (עולם), means a period of time with an unknown ending. The word comes from a root meaning "to be concealed," or "hidden." In the New Testament the word αιωνος comes from a root that simply means "period of existence." It can mean a lifetime, a long time, an era, or when used in the plural "the ages." Sometimes in the NT we see two plurals, which is literally "the ages of ages." This is as close as the Bible comes to the modern philosophical concept of eternity, but it's not yet fully developed.

The context must inform the interpretation of these kinds of constructions, but genre must be kept in mind, as well as the philosophical outlook of the author.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:21 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
I think modern hyperbole is much more prevalent in that sense than ancient, although I also don't think the ancient Jews and Christians possessed a concept of philosophical eternity. Literally, the Hebrew word translated "forever" (עולם), means a period of time with an unknown ending. The word comes from a root meaning "to be concealed," or "hidden." In the New Testament the word αιωνος comes from a root that simply means "period of existence." It can mean a lifetime, a long time, an era, or when used in the plural "the ages." Sometimes in the NT we see two plurals, which is literally "the ages of ages." This is as close as the Bible comes to the modern philosophical concept of eternity, but it's not yet fully developed.

The context must inform the interpretation of these kinds of constructions, but genre must be kept in mind, as well as the philosophical outlook of the author.
I agree with you. Mainly my point was to show that even the modern use of a word is not specific to the one meaning that the author of that post was trying to impose upon scripture.
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
People have been debating this forever. That stop light took forever to change. I was waiting on that elevator forever.


What exactly does forever mean again?
It's funny, how people don't bother reading posts even from the same page. It results in a lot of repetition. Here, I copy/pasted it for you:

Aionios = without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting Synonym : See Definition 5801 eternal 59, of eternal 4, an eternal 2, ages 1, began 1, eternally 1, of an eternal 1, the ages began

If the Bible says sinners lose eternal life, then logic and common sense dictates you lose it for eternity. You can't lose eternal life temporarily, or it wouldn't be eternal.
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:20 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It's funny, how people don't bother reading posts even from the same page. .

Exactly, that is why you have missed my point.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
I looked at your link and there's nothing particularly insightful there. It's mainly dogmatism and poor hermeneutics.
Hi Daniel O. McClellan,

Please tell me why it is important that we understand what the Hebrews believed about death and the afterlife. When Jesus spoke to the folks in the "New Testament," what scriptures were they reading? And, did they understand them? (I'm not sure they would have nailed Yeshua to a tree if they did.)

The link I provided was an exceptional link, if you ask me, on how the Hebrews used their language (definitely FLOWERY AND POETIC) and how the Old Testament folks understood life after death and such.

Also, please explain why the link that I posted would not establish what happens to a person when they are dead, and why the New Testament folks (Jews) would have had to start thinking COMPLETELY foreign thoughts to understand Jesus!

Thank you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Exactly, not to mention the carefully omitted parts which describe the gulf in Sheol/Hades. I am done with the poster since he refuses to explain his/her point. It is a little frustrating when someone offers a link to someone else's article and says "read the link, all the evidence is there", and when you read it, there is really nothing to prove a point one way or the other.
I am a she. And, dear Finn_Jarber; that ol' gulf that you are talking about?

ONE VERSE in the ENTIRE BIBLE talks about a gulf! AND IT IS A PARABLE! Jesus was speaking in parables the ENTIRE TIME to those hard- hearted guys.

A PARABLE is not supposed to be easily understood!

Parable: A short and simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a much deeper and profound moral or spiritual truth,"

HE SPOKE IN PARABLES FOR A REASON!


“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34


“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they (NOBODY) understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6

Mark 4:10-13 “That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?”

And, He WILL forgive them! He just had other plans for the rest of this age, so He dropped them for the time being!
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

I am a she. And, dear Finn_Jarber; that ol' gulf that you are talking about?

ONE VERSE in the ENTIRE BIBLE talks about a gulf! AND IT IS A PARABLE! Jesus was speaking in parables the ENTIRE TIME to those hard- hearted guys.

A PARABLE is not supposed to be easily understood!

Parable: A short and simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a much deeper and profound moral or spiritual truth,"

HE SPOKE IN PARABLES FOR A REASON!


“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34


“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they (NOBODY) understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6

Mark 4:10-13 “That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?”

And, He WILL forgive them! He just had other plans for the rest of this age, so He dropped them for the time being!
Actually, many think it isn't a parable. All parables, are "true-to-life" realistic stories that could easily substitute for a newspaper headline or a common every day human experience. Like the "parable of the sower", everyone understands, from human experience a man planing a garden! In Luke 16, the entire scene in the "grave" is entirely outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something outside human experience. The fact that Lazarus was actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. No parables of Jesus ever gives specific names.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,266 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Actually, many think it isn't a parable. All parables, are "true-to-life" realistic stories that could easily substitute for a newspaper headline or a common every day human experience. Like the "parable of the sower", everyone understands, from human experience a man planing a garden! In Luke 16, the entire scene in the "grave" is entirely outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something outside human experience. The fact that Lazarus was actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. No parables of Jesus ever gives specific names.
Guess what? You're right.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:00 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Actually, many think it isn't a parable. All parables, are "true-to-life" realistic stories that could easily substitute for a newspaper headline or a common every day human experience. Like the "parable of the sower", everyone understands, from human experience a man planing a garden! In Luke 16, the entire scene in the "grave" is entirely outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something outside human experience. The fact that Lazarus was actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. No parables of Jesus ever gives specific names.

We are told that Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Actually, many think it isn't a parable. All parables, are "true-to-life" realistic stories that could easily substitute for a newspaper headline or a common every day human experience. Like the "parable of the sower", everyone understands, from human experience a man planing a garden! In Luke 16, the entire scene in the "grave" is entirely outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something outside human experience. The fact that Lazarus was actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. No parables of Jesus ever gives specific names.

I would rather study ALL of scripture to get a better idea as to what happens to people when they die. If you read my thread "defining words" you can understand a little better what I am talking about.

This particular passage, Lazarus and the Rich Man, is in the MIDDLE of a HUGE line of parables. It means something rather interesting and was DIRECTED at those He was talking to.

L. Ray Smith - Lazarus and the Rich Man
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