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Old 05-18-2010, 06:58 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 867,467 times
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If the Bible says sinners lose eternal life, then logic and common sense dictates you lose it for eternity. You can't lose eternal life temporarily, or it wouldn't be eternal.
actually, you couldn't loose or gain "eternal life" (if it were the right translation) at all, if eternal is endless without beginning, you either ever had eternal life and will ever have or you'll never had it and will never have it, for "eternal" is commonly understood as to mean without beginning and end. "Eternity" is an unbiblical idea.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,440 posts, read 10,909,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
actually, you couldn't loose or gain "eternal life" (if it were the right translation) at all, if eternal is endless without beginning, you either ever had eternal life and will ever have or you'll never had it and will never have it, for "eternal" is commonly understood as to mean without beginning and end. "Eternity" is an unbiblical idea.
It is Biblical.

How can you be in eternal punishement (Matthew 25:46) temporarily?
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,367 posts, read 2,459,626 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Maybe they should rename it "temporary eternal life". LOL
Hi Finn,
my understanding is that eternal life has always existed. What can be "lost" might be an opportunity to enjoy it, but it always exists. And it seems to me that if an opportunity is lost, it is also possible to regain that possibility. See what I'm saying?

Of course, none of us knows exactly what it's like till we get there.. But if hell exists I'd like to see that, first-- maybe I can talk to some "unbelievers" there about the Love of God! Then take them back with me to the Father!

Peace,
Brian
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,440 posts, read 10,909,868 times
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Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
And it seems to me that if an opportunity is lost, it is also possible to regain that possibility. See what I'm saying?
I don't see anything in the Bible about coming back from hell.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:05 PM
 
1,143 posts, read 867,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is Biblical.

How can you be in eternal punishement (Matthew 25:46) temporarily?
the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek language, the "real bible" is not the King James Version; "eternal" is no Hebrew or Greek word, "eternal" isn't even an genuine English word at all, "eternal" is of Latin origin, aeternus; aeternus didn't mean originally "endless" either, you will find e.g. the expression "in aeternum et ultra" in the Latin bible, "in eternity and beyond".

for further information you might want to read this:

"eternity" in the bible and the Greek philosophers

Greek words and their Latin synonyms

Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean?

A physicalistic approach to Matthew 25:46

and especially this link:

Whence Eternity?
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,440 posts, read 10,909,868 times
Reputation: 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek language, the "real bible" is not the King James Version; "eternal" is no Hebrew or Greek word, "eternal" isn't even an genuine English word at all, "eternal" is of Latin origin, aeternus; aeternus didn't mean originally "endless" either, you will find e.g. the expression "in aeternum et ultra" in the Latin bible, "in eternity and beyond".

for further information you might want to read this:

"eternity" in the bible and the Greek philosophers

Greek words and their Latin synonyms

Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean?

A physicalistic approach to Matthew 25:46

and especially this link:

Whence Eternity?
Thanks, but I have already studied the greek words and concluded it means eternity.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 539,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I don't see anything in the Bible about coming back from hell.
Wherether parable or not, everybody will be raised from the dead, including Lazarus and Dives

After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20, AV) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6, AV)

In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 AV) "Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice...I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple." (Jonah 2:1-2, 6-7, AV) Of course, God heard Jonah's prayer in hell, "And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land." (Jo 2:10)

According to Scripture on Jonah THE PROPHET'S experience "for ever" is three days long. Jonah's disobedience was the occasion for God to enact "the only sign given to a wicked and perverted generation." However, such references in Holy Writ are totally wrong if the punishment for sin is ceaseless torture for ever. Jesus in proclaiming, "It is finished" on the cross was using a Greek expression that was written across the balance due on a bill that also means, "Paid in full!" Christ the substitute for the sin of the entire world was dead for three days; but, man without the substitute suffers ceaseless torture for ever?! If true, in order for the payment to be made in full Jesus has to be tortured now and for ever.

Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25-26) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 05-18-2010 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 539,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Forever means forever, I posted a whole study of that a few days ago. It blows the UR theory into pieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, you can't do it to truth, but you can do it to UR.

NETBible: John 3:36

Aionios = without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting Synonym : See Definition 5801 eternal 59, of eternal 4, an eternal 2, ages 1, began 1, eternally 1, of an eternal 1, the ages began

If the Bible says sinners lose eternal life, then logic and common sense dictates you lose it for eternity. You can't lose eternal life temporarily, or it wouldn't be eternal.
Some of you keep saying, "Eternal this," and, "Eternal that." While that is a generally understandable communication in English, it is not a word consistent with the Biblical occurences of the words (Hebrew: sing.: olam, pl.: olamin; Greek: sing.: eon, pl.: eons, adj.: eonious) over which has been pasted (followed by number of occurences in KJV): nouns: ages 2, course 1, world 40, ever 72, never 7, evermore 4, eternal 2; adjective: everlasting 25, eternal 42, world 3, ever 1.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
The following indisputable FACTS from our English Bible illustrate commonly accepted translations are faulty works of men that hide the Words of God...
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Certainly the doctrine of endless torture is never stated in the Hebrew Scripture! There are not even any translations containing such words to dispute. Dupes of traditions from men of reprobate minds, many of them commiting adultery with Religious Institutions for which they are rewarded positions and profit, are ignorant of the true God as manifested in Jesus Christ. Some misguided souls do not even accept as Christians those with a different eschatology than their own, such as those who believe in the larger hope. For something eternal tormenters give such an vastly over inflated value to, it is remarkable there is no record of God ever mentioning it for 4,ooo years! The morally depraved and thoroughly repugnant permanant evil of ceaseless torture is so clearly and easily shown to be false, being primarily mistranslations, that Jesus, the Savior of All, may be readily commended to any conscientious follower of the Holy Spirit desiring to walk in uncompromised love. The following makes clear that the English Bible cannot mean everlasting when it says everlasting!

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)—until—God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord "will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"—
until—the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3);

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is—until—they "were shattered" (Hab. 3:6);

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetual"—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

Lack of experience and knowledge cannot be remedied if you're taught to be deaf and blind. God sees and hears everything. He's not deceived or defiled. To be like Him is the Image of your destiny. The spirit of deception is identified by an inability to listen, specifically to talk about God by those of God. (conf., 1 Jn 4.5-6) Don't think whatever the label "orthodoxy" is trumpeted before by bought religious elite who give titles of honor to one another must therefore be true. What it really is (now think about this) is the popular consensus at any given time among Institutionally owned professionals who believe they should have the microphone.

To illustrate the inconsistency of the translators, in the following passages the Greek word translated with
"eternity" in English is consistently so translated. Consider how illogical the Holy Spirit would appear saying,

"which God, who does not lie promised before the beginning of eternity (
literally: before times aeonian)" (Tit 1:2);

"according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for eternity past
(literally: in times aeonian)" (Rom 16:25);

"we speak
the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the eternities (literally: before the eons) unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world (literally: this aeon) knew..."(1 Cor 2:7-8) this says there is before at least two or more in the past;

"who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil eternity (
literally: this present wicked aeon)" (Gal 1:4);

"who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming eternity (literally: impending aeon)" (Heb.6:5.)

"that in the eternities to come (literally: aeons to come) he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus;" (Eph 2:7) this says there are two or more in the future;

"the harvest is the end of this eternity (literally: conclusion of the aeon)" (Matt 13:39);

"now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the eternities (literally: the ends of the aeons) are come;" (1Cor 10:11) this says they all end!

If I'm deceived it's the fault of Scripture itself. Consistent rendering not only works, it's to be preferred, though it has little to do with settling the larger question. Most people only think it does because they're ignorant of what is or is not written in Holy Scripture.
Never the less, for those who consider Scripture to be the authority for faith and practice this information should be decisive. Those who don't bother reading it will give an explanation why in that great day. Those who do read it but refuse to bow their proud necks will have more to answer for.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 539,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is Biblical.

How can you be in eternal punishement (Matthew 25:46) temporarily?
In the King James Version it is, "Everlasting punishment." If it was ceaseless torture for ever the translators would have said, "Everlasting punishing!" Because David's hands were bloody, having murdered Uriah to steal his wife, he was not allowed to build the temple. That punishment David was unable to repent of. It was permanent, "everlasting."

In the original the word order is the other way around (wrong order to say, "everlasting punishment") and, more exactly explaining those two words, "chastening eonian," it means, "discipline (which is done to produce a good result,) or, chastening appropriate to the long period of time in which it occurs."
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:31 AM
 
12,278 posts, read 5,862,736 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I don't see anything in the Bible about coming back from hell.
That's because there is no coming back from hell. It is final, and it is forever.
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