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Old 05-19-2010, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,743 times
Reputation: 115

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It's common on these discussion boards to belittle people you know nothing about as a part of this whole process of posturing.
For the second time, you've failed to distinguish between criticisms of an argument and criticisms of a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Talk about hypocricy....sigh...

No, all you have managed to do is thump your chest in arrogance.
I notice that in this post you've managed to respond to zero concerns of mine and have done nothing but sling ad hominem in my direction. If you cannot address the substance of my concerns then you've forfeited this debate.
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Old 05-19-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
Reputation: 9406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
For the second time, you've failed to distinguish between criticisms of an argument and criticisms of a person.
It is quite clear what you are saying, thanks. Personal attack is personal attack, and I don't care how you dress it.

Quote:
I notice that in this post you've managed to respond to zero concerns of mine and have done nothing but sling ad hominem in my direction. If you cannot address the substance of my concerns then you've forfeited this debate
The hyporcicy again.... Read your own post and say that again. LOL. There was nothing related to the discussion, only attempts to belittle me, bragging about how much you read and remarks about my spelling.

Snap out of it. If you can't address the points, don't say anything. It's much better that way.
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
aionios=without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Here's THE TRUTH of Holy Scriptures indicating the distinctive facts from the original language...
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Greek: "eon,-s, -ios" (sing., pl., adj.)
is the word over which King James Version pasted "world" 43 times, "ever" 73 times, "everlasting" 25 times, "eternal' 44 times, etc.
Surveying occurences of "eon,-s, -ian" in Scripture teaches us that:

There is "before the eons" (2 Tim 1:9);
a minimum of 2 in the past, "hid from the eons" (Col 1:26);
one present, "this eon" (Lk 20:34);
a minimum of 2 in the future
, "eons to come" (Eph 2:7),
hence a minimum of 5 eons are indicated
;
and there is after the eons, "the end of the eons" (Heb 9:26).
There also is "the purpose of the eons" (Eph 3:8-9; additionally, Eph 1:9-11, Phil 2:9-11, Col 1:15-21, 1 Cor 15:20-28.)
(The eons are long periods of time set off by cataclysms and deal with the time aspect as the world deals with the cosmic or constitutional aspect.)

For comparison, similar words apply to something in space, the tabernacle or temple. There is the holy (sing) place; then there are the 2 holies (plural), the holy (sing) place and the holy (sing) of holies (plural); taken together, these 2 are the holies (plural) of the holies (plural). The phrase "the holies of the holies" does not signify an infinite number of holies as the phrase "eons of the eons" does not apply to an infinite succession of eons or timeless infinity. "The eons of the eons" applies only to the last 2 eons, being the culminating outcome of all the eons.
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
aionios=without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
I've shortened an emphasized the following list in hope it might actually be read. It is only quoting the King James Version of the Bible. These passages make clear that the English Bible cannot mean everlasting when it says everlasting, that eternal does not mean eternal in the Bible and forever is a little as three days!

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)—until—God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever
until—the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3);

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is—until—they "were shattered" (Hab. 3:6);

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetualuntil—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "foreveruntil—the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,743 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is quite clear what you are saying, thanks. Personal attack is personal attack, and I don't care how you dress it.
I've not made a single personal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The hyporcicy again.... Read your own post and say that again. LOL. There was nothing related to the discussion, only attempts to belittle me, bragging about how much you read and remarks about my spelling.

Snap out of it. If you can't address the points, don't say anything. It's much better that way.
I've already addressed all your points, and rather than engage my concerns, you've just rattled on about how mean I am. The ball is in your court. As I've said, if you cannot respond to my concerns then this debate is over and you've lost it.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
Reputation: 9406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
I've already addressed all your points, and rather than engage my concerns
You haven't addressed any of them. But it's ok, I am not looking to continue the conversation with you since you are quick to resort to rudeness and arrogant chest thumping. I am sure someone else can continue the discussion with you.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:14 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
As has been said by me and others, the modern philosophical concept of eternity was unknown to early Jews and Christians. There are also far too few references to the eternal nature of one as opposed to the other to use that as a categorical boundary.
That is not true.
Enoch wrote it all down, before the flood, for all generations of the world to know about eternal judgment and eternal life.

Moses' references to Sheol are references to the doctrine as Enoch revealed it.
Jesus references to Sheol and to the Lake of Fire are also made in the same frame of Enoch's revelations.
Neither Moses nor Jesus needed to re-lay the foundational doctrines for that which was laid once, for all, by Enoch, for all the generations of the world.

Even John's references to Sheol and to the Lake of Fire are also made in the same framework of Enoch's revelations, as all the foundational doctrines of the OT and NT are.

Sheol comes from the Hebrew word for hollow, and Enoch saw the hollows of earth, below, prepared as holding places for different groups.
Not in this order, but the four are:
# 1 the place for the slain, whose blood was not avenged [Abel went there first]. The slain cry to YHWH for the avenging of their blood, from their place.
#2 the lowest hollow where the angels who fornicated were chained, and after the flood, the 90% of the disembodied nephillim from the time of the flood were also bound there [in answer to Noah's petition, as Jubilees recounts], until the tribulation, when they will be released to torment mankind. Azazel, particularly, was to be chained there until the 70th generation from Noah's flood, when he would be given all sin, and cast into the lake of fire.
In the Torah, the goat elected by lot "to Azazel" was a type and shadow of that Day of Atonement which was to come [and is come], when Jesus had all the sins and iniquities of His people [whoever chooses to be His people can be], laid on his soul; and He departed to Sheol, bearing those sins and iniquites, taking them away, "to Azazel", as the book of Enoch first revealed would happen when the Day of Atonement would be fulfilled.
#3 the place for the righteous to rest in peace, waiting for the Atonement, and in their hollow was bright springs of water.
#4 for the wicked, who died in sin, unrepentant, and they are in tormenting flames.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:20 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
I've not made a single personal attack.



I've already addressed all your points, and rather than engage my concerns, you've just rattled on about how mean I am. The ball is in your court. As I've said, if you cannot respond to my concerns then this debate is over and you've lost it.
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to the forum ------ Finn is quite happy with his beliefs and does not want to change them, he had been told that there is an eternal fiery place of torment for unbelievers and he reads these passages in the KJV translation of the bible and so for him the case is closed -- believe and be saved (from eternal fiery lake of fire)

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

He does not want to investigate any further why there is judgment for deeds and that when the nations are are gathered before the son of man that punishment not based on belief it is based on how they treated 'these my brethren'.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:29 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes, that seems to be the general consensus. In the Old Testament, though, it says He will do nothing without communicating to us through His prophets. It doesn't say He intended to stop after He sent His Son. Heaven knows, we could use a little personal direction in this day and age, particularly since we can't seem to agree on what the Bible is telling us.
He has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. There is nothing more He has to say to us than that which He has spoken to us by the Christ come in flesh.
John gave us Jesus' revelation, the last word from Him. The Four Gospels give us the testimony of His coming in flesh, and of His Gospel/Good News for salvation to all men, in this Church age, which age will end only when the Church is taken out of the midst of the world, before the tribulation comes upon it.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,743 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
That is not true.
Enoch wrote it all down, before the flood, for all generations of the world to know about eternal judgment and eternal life.
Until you can back up your assertion with something besides more assertion, I'm not interested in responding. The language, angelology, soteriology, and demonology of Enoch are all very securely plotted along a clear trajectory of the development of religious thought in Second Temple Judaism. It doesn't predate the Hellenistic Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Moses' references to Sheol are references to the doctrine as Enoch revealed it.
Jesus references to Sheol and to the Lake of Fire are also made in the same frame of Enoch's revelations.
Neither Moses nor Jesus needed to re-lay the foundational doctrines for that which was laid once, for all, by Enoch, for all the generations of the world.

Even John's references to Sheol and to the Lake of Fire are also made in the same framework of Enoch's revelations, as all the foundational doctrines of the OT and NT are.
I've already covered the various ideologies related to sheol from this time period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Sheol comes from the Hebrew word for hollow,
No it doesn't. The etymology is unknown and heavily debated, but it certainly doesn't come from "hollow." The most likely root of the word is שאה, "to lie desolate" with a suffixed lamed, although even that is not without problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
and Enoch saw the hollows of earth, below, prepared as holding places for different groups.
Not in this order, but the four are:
# 1 the place for the slain, whose blood was not avenged [Abel went there first]. The slain cry to YHWH for the avenging of their blood, from their place.
#2 the lowest hollow where the angels who fornicated were chained, and after the flood, the 90% of the disembodied nephillim from the time of the flood were also bound there [in answer to Noah's petition, as Jubilees recounts], until the tribulation, when they will be released to torment mankind.
Here's one of the reasons we know Enoch comes from the Hellenistic Period. The "sons of God" (בני אלהים) of Genesis 6 were not angels. The idea that they were is a Hellenistic era innovation. I discuss that here and here.
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