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Old 05-19-2010, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,684 posts, read 32,136,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to the forum ------ Finn is quite happy with his beliefs and does not want to change them, he had been told that there is an eternal fiery place of torment for unbelievers and he reads these passages in the KJV translation of the bible and so for him the case is closed -- believe and be saved (from eternal fiery lake of fire)

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

He does not want to investigate any further why there is judgment for deeds and that when the nations are are gathered before the son of man that punishment not based on belief it is based on how they treated 'these my brethren'.
I have investigated it, and the URs have been kind enough to bombard me with their own beliefs and have offered cherry picked Bible verses as proof. These 'proofs' have been shot down and serve as further proof of what I already believed.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,306 posts, read 20,998,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
To take ANY of this parable literally would be kind of, well......never mind. I can get into that in another post if you would like.

And, remember, if this were to be taken literally, it would CONTRADICT hundreds of other verses in the Bible! There is NOWHERE in the Bible that would suggest that there is such a place as the Greek Underworld or the pagan punishments of old. I've checked! And, I have been studying my brains out! NOT LITERALLY, of course!

Tell me, before I explain: If you were actually being tormented in a LITERAL FIRE, could you talk? Would you ask for a drop of water for your tongue as the rich man did, or a bucket? Just asking. AND, is it wrong to be rich, and good to be poor, as this seems to teach if taken literally?

Anyway, let's take a look at what all these words in the parable stand for and then I will explain the rest:

Purple and Fine Linen: (I mean, really, why do we care what he is dressed in?? BECAUSE IT MATTERS!) Purple was worn by royalty and Kings, NOT the poor, and was a symbol for power and authority. Fine linen was Cambric, which the PRIESTS WORE, and was part of the interior tabernacle decorations.

Judah: Carrying the ROYAL LINE in Israel. King David and our Savior were both from this line.

5 brothers: Why does this parable mention the number 5? What do 5 brothers have to do with anything? There were 12 tribes, obviously, but Judah's mother had 6 SONS, which means Judah had 5 BROTHERS!

Lazarus: Eliezar (Lazarus), ABRAHAM'S GENTILE SERVANT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT! He was supposed to get Abraham's inheritance! WOW! If anybody out there understands how awesome that would have been, SPIRITUALLY and otherwise, you will understand the parable a little better!

Rich Man: Judah.

Gulf: There has been a gulf separating the Gentiles and Jews for 2000 years now. WHO is carrying the oracles of God these days??

Chasm: Judah has been blinded by God Himself, while the Gentiles are carrying the torch. They cannot get to the SPIRITUAL WATERS!

Drop of Water: The "RICH MAN" is asking for Lazarus to dip his FINGER in the spiritual WATER! Judah bound heavy burdens on people and would not lift A FINGER to help them. The Rich Man, JUDAH, is begging a GENTILE DOG for help!

Torment and Anguish: Persecution and anguish (out in the dark, weeping and gnashing of teeth, outside the kingdom for the last 2000 years).

Flame: SORROW, SHAME, PERSECUTION (and, most of the Bible is not speaking of LITERAL fire when it speaks of fire, which is easy to see when studied. It is SPIRITUAL fire! I can put that in another post if you would like)

Abraham's Bosom: A place of extreme closeness to THE FATHER!! A place of GREAT HONOR! Gentiles can NOW be in the tabernacle! It used to be that they were DOGS and could not get in to get the SPIRITUAL food!

Dogs: GENTILES! Not allowed to go into the tabernacle.

Scraps of FOOD: Spiritual scraps of food, just as when the woman asked for Jesus' to give her scraps of food from the table. SPIRITUAL scraps. But, she was a DOG (GENTILE)! Check the scriptures!

Sores: NOT SAVED! Salve, means health. To have salvation means to be made spiritually healthy!

Luke 16:19-31
[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.



That Rich Man was Judah, dressed in the FINEST spiritual and literal apparel. WHO was outside the GATE covered in SORES and NOT SAVED LONGING to eat (spiritual food) that fell from the rich man's table??

Remember these things when you read Revelation.



[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'



The Jews LOVED to tell everybody who their father was. They were waiting for the kingdom, and they were proud of all that God had given them; NOT thankful, but PROUD! Judah is asking for LAZARUS, of all people, a GENTILE DOG to give just a LITTLE bit of spiritual health to him! The Jews have been in agony for 2000 years, living in outer darkness, cast out of the kingdom.



[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'



Abraham is telling Judah (JEWS) that Lazarus (GENTILES), WHO WAS ABRAHAM'S GENTILE SERVANT in the Old Testament, the RIGHTFUL HEIR before Issac was born, IS NOW RECEIVING THE INHERITANCE!



[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'



Judah is asking the Gentiles to warn the other tribes, his 5 brothers.



[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'



But, the 5 brothers had MOSES AND THE PROPHETS! RIGHT??? YEP!



[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'


He, JUDAH, is saying that if someone were to come back from the dead (JESUS) they would listen!!! DID THEY????



[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


The 5 brothers (the tribe of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun) did NOT listen to MOSES AND THE PROPHETS! NO! They were always killing off the prophets in the Old Testament! And they would NOT listen to Moses!



When Jesus rose from the dead, did they care? NOPE! Were they sent off to hell (Gehenna) just like Jesus warned them? Did they lose the kingdom? Were they cast into outer darkness? Yep.


Best I can do. Hope I did not confuse anybody.

I'm going to be gone for the next week, so any replies will be rather short.
You've made some really good points and some I'd never thought of before. It sounds like you've really done your homework. I'll admit, you made a very good case.

I'm curious, though, as to how you would explain Jesus' visit to the Spirit World during the time His body lay in the tomb. Obviously, he spoke to the spirits of individuals who had the capability of listening to Him and hearing what He said. If the dead are unaware of their surroundings, how could this be? And why did Christ tell the thief on the cross that He see him that day in Paradise if the thief wasn't going to be aware of their meeting. I really do believe that when the spirit leaves the body at death, it continues to exist as a cognizant entity until the resurrection. To me, these two situations make that pretty clear.
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Old 05-19-2010, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 846,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
He has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. There is nothing more He has to say to us than that which He has spoken to us by the Christ come in flesh.
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:29-30, AV)

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Cor 12:12, AV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
John gave us Jesus' revelation, the last word from Him. The Four Gospels give us the testimony of His coming in flesh, and of His Gospel/Good News for salvation to all men, in this Church age, which age will end only when the Church is taken out of the midst of the world, before the tribulation comes upon it.
It is very sad and is a state of deception to believe that He Who made the mouth cannot speak. He only left us with a book to argue about. Most of the followers of Jesus I know have many testimonies to God's speaking with them, answering prayer, leading and teaching them. Just as when we are born of Adam we have Adamic eyes and ears, so when we are born of God we begin to see God and by the means of God, and hear God and hear by means of God. This is normal. It is the Moslems, as I understand it, who don't believe in any farther communication since their prophet left them the Koran and Haddith, not the Christians.

Also, we're looking for Jesus coming, not our going; the appearing of the Lord, not the disappearing of the saints. Instead of leaving, we're taking over. Instead of expecting defeat in death or retreat in "Rapture," we're expecting complete victory in Christ, victory over darkness, sickness, lack, bondage, even over death.

DipSinsationalism destroys destiny by robbing the Church of her true identity in Christ as the seed of Abraham and David. To Abraham was given the entire cosmos as an inheritance and to David was given the right to rule it.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:27-29 KJV)
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
He has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. There is nothing more He has to say to us than that which He has spoken to us by the Christ come in flesh.
John gave us Jesus' revelation, the last word from Him. The Four Gospels give us the testimony of His coming in flesh, and of His Gospel/Good News for salvation to all men, in this Church age, which age will end only when the Church is taken out of the midst of the world, before the tribulation comes upon it.
I believe we are to be looking for Christ within us now, speaking to our hearts and teaching and leading us into all righteousness. You are the temple of God. The anointing that is in you shall teach you, and you have no need to be taught of men. The Kingdom of God is within you. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?

Many blessings to you,
Brian
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:25 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post

...Most of the followers of Jesus I know have many testimonies to God's speaking with them, answering prayer, leading and teaching them. Just as when we are born of Adam we have Adamic eyes and ears, so when we are born of God we begin to see God and by the means of God, and hear God and hear by means of God. This is normal.
" (Gal 3:27-29 KJV)
And I walk with Jesus the Christ who is in me, by His Living Spirit of adoption, and we fellowship. But you miss the point that there is not one more Word from God, of new, never before revealed doctrine, to any man on earth, since Jesus is His "Last Word" to mankind.
If any person "hears" a spirit speaking any other doctrine than that which is given by Christ, as recorded in His Word, then that spirit is not to be listened to. Having fellowship with the LORD and hearing His voice and being guided by His Spirit in daily life is the way in which a born again in Christ believer walks, but they do not invent new, never before revealed in the Word doctrines; esp any that touch the Person or the work of Jesus the Christ.
The Word says there are many heresies, but not all are damnable heresies. A damnable heresy touches the Person and the work of God in the Person of the Son, come to redeem His own [Adam creation race] back, for the glory, and to ransom the lost earth [which Adam, the first -but now dead in spirit- "firstborn son of God of the human being kind"] sold into sin and corruption]; and to redeem them back for His own glory to be revealed in them, as adopted sons in the New Man name of the Firstborn Son of God, which is the second human being creation Name -"Israel".
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:08 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post


No it doesn't. The etymology is unknown and heavily debated, but it certainly doesn't come from "hollow." The most likely root of the word is שאה, "to lie desolate" with a suffixed lamed, although even that is not without problems.
Enoch is the first book of "last things" and was written for all nations, for all the generations of the world, and written before the flood. It is not a Jewish nor a Greek book in its origins, but is of the prophet Enoch, the seventh from Adam, as Jude verifies.
Enoch lays the foundational doctrines of all truth about the Person and work of the Son of Man in heaven, who was with God and who was God, and who was hidden, kept secret, until His revealing "to the elect" in His season.
Enoch lays the foundational doctrines for the fallen angels as the chained in Sheol spirits, and the doctrine of the origin of demons [and the females are the sirens] who roam earth tormenting and deceiving the sons of Adam, as the disembodied offspring of the fornicating angels who "kept not their first estate".

The word for Sheol, translated as the pit, under the earth, comes from the word "to make hollow, or hollow out", as the word hollow does, also, in Isaiah 40. Isa 40:12
Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand...

The Pit, Sheol, opens her peh/mouth, to receive the souls of the dead [but since the end of the first death of separation for those who are made acceptable by the once for all Atonement of the blood of God the Lamb, no righteous souls go there, but go to the City of God above, to await the resurrection of the body].
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood/life/soul crieth unto me from the ground/earth.
Gen 4:11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth/peh to receive thy brother's blood/soul/life from thy hand;

Quote:
1 Enoch
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.



3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'



I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'



8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.



And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits.



There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners.

Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.' Now Jesus gave a lesson about two men in Sheol, one righteous and one an unrepentant sinner, in Luke 16. Jesus said one was in comfort, in Abraham's bosom [he was a child of faith, and went to the "hollow" for the righteous, to wait for the day of Atonement, the day of release from there for all the righteous], and one was in torment.

Just as Enoch portrayed Sheol, even so, Jesus gives a report on conditions there for two departed souls.

9"There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried; 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 2


7And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"
http://www.city-data.com/forum/reput...php?p=10955815
Not all who go down to the "pit/hollow/sheol" die first.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick/alive into sheol; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD....Num 16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into sheol, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.


That is a foreshadowing of those who will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire at the return of Jesus to cleanse the earth of all that offends, when He comes to set up His Millennnial reign over the earth which He has ransomed, but not yet taken possession of
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, andthe false prophetthethe beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. with him that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received mark of
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 953,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Enoch is the first book of "last things" and was written for all nations, for all the generations of the world, and written before the flood. It is not a Jewish nor a Greek book in its origins, but is of the prophet Enoch, the seventh from Adam, as Jude verifies.
Enoch lays the foundational doctrines of all truth about the Person and work of the Son of Man in heaven, who was with God and who was God, and who was hidden, kept secret, until His revealing "to the elect" in His season.
Enoch lays the foundational doctrines for the fallen angels as the chained in Sheol spirits, and the doctrine of the origin of demons [and the females are the sirens] who roam earth tormenting and deceiving the sons of Adam, as the disembodied offspring of the fornicating angels who "kept not their first estate".
Not a word of this addresses my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The word for Sheol, translated as the pit, under the earth, comes from the word "to make hollow, or hollow out", as the word hollow does, also, in Isaiah 40. Isa 40:12
Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand...
I'm afraid you're simply wrong. שאול, "underworld," is spelled with an aleph, while שעל, "hollow," is spelled with an ayin. They're two completely unrelated words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The Pit, Sheol, opens her peh/mouth, to receive the souls of the dead [but since the end of the first death of separation for those who are made acceptable by the once for all Atonement of the blood of God the Lamb, no righteous souls go there, but go to the City of God above, to await the resurrection of the body].
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood/life/soul crieth unto me from the ground/earth.
Gen 4:11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth/peh to receive thy brother's blood/soul/life from thy hand;

Not all who go down to the "pit/hollow/sheol" die first.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick/alive into sheol; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD....Num 16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into sheol, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

That is a foreshadowing of those who will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire at the return of Jesus to cleanse the earth of all that offends, when He comes to set up His Millennnial reign over the earth which He has ransomed, but not yet taken possession of
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, andthe false prophetthethe beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. with him that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received mark of
Again, not a word of this is relevant. I'm losing patience with this discussion. If you cannot respond to my concerns then I have no reason to continue this debate.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,392,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You've made some really good points and some I'd never thought of before. It sounds like you've really done your homework. I'll admit, you made a very good case.

I'm curious, though, as to how you would explain Jesus' visit to the Spirit World during the time His body lay in the tomb. Obviously, he spoke to the spirits of individuals who had the capability of listening to Him and hearing what He said. If the dead are unaware of their surroundings, how could this be? And why did Christ tell the thief on the cross that He see him that day in Paradise if the thief wasn't going to be aware of their meeting. I really do believe that when the spirit leaves the body at death, it continues to exist as a cognizant entity until the resurrection. To me, these two situations make that pretty clear.
Hi Katzpur,


Thank you for your reply.

I wanted to answer your questions, and Daniel's, when I get home if you don't mind, as I am on the truck with my husband this week. You both ask very good questions, and I am eager to study some more, so I can have proper answers for you both.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:30 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post


I'm afraid you're simply wrong. שאול, "underworld," is spelled with an aleph, while שעל, "hollow," is spelled with an ayin. They're two completely unrelated words.

Gesenius discovered that the root etymons for sheol mean exactly a hollow and subterranean place, and he discovered that without the correlating proof of the foundational doctrine as revealed and laid for all time by Enoch who saw "Sheol" as "hollows' beneath the earth, where the rebel angels are chained and where the departed souls went, to their separate hollows, to await their appointed times.

Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)
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Old 05-20-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 953,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Gesenius discovered that the root etymons for sheol mean exactly a hollow and subterranean place, and he discovered that without the correlating proof of the foundational doctrine as revealed and laid for all time by Enoch who saw "Sheol" as "hollows' beneath the earth, where the rebel angels are chained and where the departed souls went, to their separate hollows, to await their appointed times.

Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)
Gesenius is wrong. I suggest you get a lexicon from this century. HALOT or TDOT are the standards, and, as both of them point out, the etymology is uncertain but is likely derived from שאה. Neither of them even waste their time addressing Gesenius' guess, which hasn't been taken seriously for over 100 years.
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