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Old 05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Actually, many think it isn't a parable. All parables, are "true-to-life" realistic stories that could easily substitute for a newspaper headline or a common every day human experience. Like the "parable of the sower", everyone understands, from human experience a man planing a garden! In Luke 16, the entire scene in the "grave" is entirely outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something outside human experience. The fact that Lazarus was actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. No parables of Jesus ever gives specific names.
Right, and there are supporting verses in the Bible. For example

Luke 13:27-28 I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

Ezekiel 23 1-4 gives specific names for that parable (Aholah and Aholibah).

Luke 4:23 says Jesus is a physician.

Matthew 13:37 mentions the Son of Man.

Parables can and do use identifiable persons in them. For sure.

There are others I can give you if you would like.
If I reread what I wrote I said "No parable of Jesus ever gives specific names."

Ezekiel 23:1-4 not a parable of Jesus
Luke 4:23 not a specific name
Matthew 13:37 not a specific name

Since Jesus doesn't say it's a parable it's an assumption that it is a parable, but it very well could be a parable. I was just stating that there are people who don't think it is. I can see both sides.

Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 05-25-2010 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
If I reread what I wrote I said "No parable of Jesus ever gives specific names."

Ezekiel 23:1-4 not a parable of Jesus
Luke 4:23 not a specific name
Matthew 13:37 not a specific name

Since Jesus doesn't say it's a parable it's an assumption that it is a parable, but it very well could be a parable. I was just stating that there are people who don't think it is. I can see both sides.
Okay, CantWait2Leave. Sorry I misunderstood.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Wow! Quick reply! Yes, I am interested in the resources you have. Thank you.
What topics, particularly, would you like information about? For general info on the relationship of Israelite religion to the surrounding cultures, a few good texts are Frank Moore Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic; Mark Smith, The Early History of God; The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible; Miller and Hayes, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah; John Walton, Ancient Israelite Literature in Its Cultural Context.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
What topics, particularly, would you like information about? For general info on the relationship of Israelite religion to the surrounding cultures, a few good texts are Frank Moore Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic; Mark Smith, The Early History of God; The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible; Miller and Hayes, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah; John Walton, Ancient Israelite Literature in Its Cultural Context.
That should do it for now. I'll take a quick look through all of those books, but I will probably take an in-depth look at "Ancient Israelite Literature in it's Cultural Context" first.

Thank you.
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
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Not only did Peter tell us Jesus preached to the dead, specially those imprisoned from the time of Noah, Jesus Himself taught the Potter continues to work on us beyond this life. Paul believed it too. The Holy Scriptures never say that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. If it did it could not be true that, "...the day of death [is better] than the day of one's birth." (Ec 7:1)

Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25-26) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

"...For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" Obviously, if that doesn't happen during our short sojourn in this veil of corruptible flesh it must happen beyond. "Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord! (cp., Php 2:10-11) I believe Scripture when it says, "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV) God's word is also quite clear that: "...if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Rm 10:9, CLT) Surely those raised from the dead and standing before a resurrected immortal and glorified Jesus will believe He is raised from the dead! This is tracing what the Scripture speaks concerning certain matters beyond the life in this body of humiliation.

There's more I could add, like development after resurrection, but this indicates something very Biblical that cartoon Christianity mostly rejects. Popular Christianity has forgotten what was important to the earliest Church as witnessed by inclusion of a phrase in the original "Apostle's Creed," (which today is usually removed,) that Jesus, after He was dead, "Descended into hell..."
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Not only did Peter tell us Jesus preached to the dead, specially those imprisoned from the time of Noah, Jesus Himself taught the Potter continues to work on us beyond this life. Paul believed it too. The Holy Scriptures never say that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. If it did it could not be true that, "...the day of death [is better] than the day of one's birth." (Ec 7:1)

Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25-26) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

"...For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" Obviously, if that doesn't happen during our short sojourn in this veil of corruptible flesh it must happen beyond. "Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord! (cp., Php 2:10-11) I believe Scripture when it says, "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV) God's word is also quite clear that: "...if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Rm 10:9, CLT) Surely those raised from the dead and standing before a resurrected immortal and glorified Jesus will believe He is raised from the dead! This is tracing what the Scripture speaks concerning certain matters beyond the life in this body of humiliation.

There's more I could add, like development after resurrection, but this indicates something very Biblical that cartoon Christianity mostly rejects. Popular Christianity has forgotten what was important to the earliest Church as witnessed by inclusion of a phrase in the original "Apostle's Creed," (which today is usually removed,) that Jesus, after He was dead, "Descended into hell..."
I believe that he might have witnessed to SPIRITS (not humans, necessarily) in another realm, but I still think that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is explained rather well by L. Ray Smith (which I tried to simplify quite a few pages back). I do not think there are 2 compartments with people's souls in them. NOWHERE in the Bible does it suggest such a thing, and Lazarus and the Rich Man is in a long line of parables.

What do you think?
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
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Many of Jesus' parables are true in nature. Nature itself "Explains" God and His Law. (Ps 19:1) I think that story about "Lazarus and Dives" is possibly both historical fact and parable. Consider, for those there, as here, not so much a gap exists when one's character changes to be more aligned with God. The story's threat, as exemplifying the greatest possible evil the carnal mind likes to conceive, is defused when we realize nobody will stay like that because everybody there will be resurrected.

Immediately following, in many people's scheme of things, or a thousand years later, there should be a gap where everybody will be standing before God for judgment. How long will that be with nobody in the flames some like to believe in for all those other bad people? If everybody got just 10 minutes that would amount to what? 10 minutes times 8(?) billion people = how many years? That's a long time to endure everybody's story and the rendering of everyone's rewards (which I'm sure would take much longer.) I'm not sure we have as clear a view of things as we compliment ourselves to have.

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 05-28-2010 at 09:56 PM..
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Many of Jesus' parables are true in nature. Nature itself "Explains" God and His Law. (Ps 19:1) I think that story about "Lazarus and Dives" is possibly both historical fact and parable. Consider, for those there, as here, not so much a gap exists when one's character changes to be more aligned with God. The story's threat, as exemplifying the greatest possible evil the carnal mind likes to conceive, is defused when we realize nobody will stay like that because everybody there will be resurrected.

Immediately following, in many people's scheme of things, or a thousand years later, there should be a gap where everybody will be standing before God for judgment. How long will that be with nobody in the flames some like to believe in for all those other bad people? If everybody got just 10 minutes that would amount to what? 10 minutes times 80(?) billion people = how many years? That's a long time to endure everybody's story and the rendering of everyone's rewards. I'm not sure we have as clear a view of things as we compliment ourselves to have.


Your last sentence is true enough. I'll think on the rest of your post a bit. Thank you.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,865,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I do not think there are 2 compartments with people's souls in them. NOWHERE in the Bible does it suggest such a thing, and Lazarus and the Rich Man is in a long line of parables.

What do you think?
Two compartments? Well maybe not, but there are very likely two states of existence within the realm where we all await the resurrection. Christ told the repentent thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He'd see him "today" in Paradise. You've pretty much got to believe He was speaking truthfully and that He did see him that day in Paradise. Three days later, when Mary met Him near the Garden Tomb, He told her not to touch Him since He hadn't yet been to His Father in Heaven. So if Christ hadn't been to Heaven, but He had been to Paradise and seen the thief there, the two places are obviously not one and the same. We also know that during the three days when His body lay in the tomb, He visited "the spirits in Prison." He clearly spent those three days in the Spirit World which, for the righteous, is a state of peace and rest, but for the wicked is a state of torment.

Justin Martyr taught that "the souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment." Irenaeus and Tertuillian did, too. This was a common beliefs for quite some time during the early years of Christianity. It only ceased to be taught in later centuries. The early Christians also believed that those in the Spirit Prison could find release from their torment as they accepted Christ.
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