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You know what I think... Whenever you are translating something, even just ordinary conversation from one language to another, you often have a number of different words to choose from. Take the word "thin," for instance. Synonyms for "thin" are "skinny," "slim," "slender," "bony," "lean," "ematiated," "skeletal," "slight," "lanky," "slender," "willowy," "trim," "svelte," "wiry," etc. If a man is turned off my overly thin women, he might describe a certain woman as "emaciated" or "bony." If another man found that same women to be very attractive, he would probably say she was "slender" or "willowy."
If you wanted to choose the best, the most accurate word, you would have to know what the original language was trying to say. If the original speaker was not available for you to ask, you'd have to use your best judgment. You might want to choose the best word, but you only think you know what the speaker was actually trying to say, so you choose a word that means what you think he wanted to say. If you're wrong, you've mistranslated the word. It's really as simple as that. The translators of the Bible had to go by what they believed the original author was trying to say (according to what they thought he meant) and find the best word to express what they believed he wanted to say.
Exactly! By the very nature of translating, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 100% perfect translation. Certain things don't translate exactly (expressions, figures of speech), bias can creep in, and errors can occur.
When you are dealing with something like scripture, then you also have the problem of interpretation. As you can see from this forum, everyone can have their own interpretation, and that's just dealing from the same English text. Combine translation and interepretation, and what you end up with is mistranslation and misinterpretation galore.
What is needed is to "unwind" the mistranslation and misinterpration, keep the scripture in context, and keep the scripture consistent. Scripture does not contradict itself... so in those cases it is wise to study some of the original language and see if we can determine where mistranslations occurred.
I gave a simple example in post #3 that shows errors do occur, and because of those errors, we can get misinterpretations, even on simple things.
It happened slowly on my part but it may seem like it happened overnight here because I kept posting like my usual stubborn fundie self. And yes, Virginia, I mean Insane, there is a God after all!!!
Does anyone have a reference to anyone who actually translates ancient Hebrew and Greek that attests to a perfect translation? I doubt you can find one, I haven't yet.
The false premise I hear is that the inerrant word of God supports the truth of someone interpretation of it.
Does anyone have a reference to anyone who actually translates ancient Hebrew and Greek that attests to a perfect translation? I doubt you can find one, I haven't yet.
The false premise I hear is that the inerrant word of God supports the truth of someone interpretation of it.
Hello Phazel,
This is EXACTLY my point with this thread!! There is always fault in man's translations. Because it is just that. Man's translations!!! God's word will be interprated correctly as truth. But not through ANY certain translations, but the interpratation ability given by God alone!!!
Permit me a word here from the resident agnostic here in the church (forum).
Frankly, I think believers make this far more difficult than it has to be. This is what happens when certain biases are employed going in such as, "the bible IS the word of God" or "ALL scriptures are inspired by God" or "the bible is perfection" or "scripture does not/cannot contradict itself." These are NOT the facts. These are the beliefs.
As soon as it is recognized that the Bible is a book written by fallible men, influenced by their surroundings, there will be CONSTANT arguments over things that need no arguments.
What folks need to understand is, early Christianity was one of MANY Christianities. Like ancient Judaism, it evolved over time. What started as one thing, ended up as something different as the years went by as various groups fought and argued over theology. I mean, we even see it very early in the theological squabble between Paul's Christianity and the Christianity of the Jerusalem Ebionite Christians. In addition, there are still MANY who believe the Gospels, for example, were written by their namesake and in doing so, believe that they were written by men who either knew Jesus or were closely related to some of his associates when it is more likely they were written by strangers from various camps within early Christianity using the pen names of known people of status. This was a VERY common practice in the ancient world.
The biases people come in with forces believers to read the New Testament (or the bible on a whole) horizontally, believing that Matthew agrees with everything John says or Romans confirms the book of Nahum or Jeremiah and Luke confirm each other (For example). If the books of the bible, notably the Gospels, are read vertically, with the understanding that there were DIFFERENT opinions about Jesus back then, I think this idea of mistranslations and contradictions might be put into better perspective.
One big thing reading the Gospels vertically clears up is the person of Jesus. Mark, the earliest Gospel, seems to reflect one of the early view of Jesus in that, he was just a mere man who was eventually "anointed" to be the "son of God," not as a LITERAL son, but as someone chosen by God to do his will on earth. The writer of Mark comes from a school that believed Jesus BECAME the anointed (Christ) son of God at his baptism - NOT before that. In other words, it was a status he attained not one he was born with. Evidence of this can be found in the very first verse of Mark where the earliest manuscripts of Mark says this:
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Bible you have today says this:
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God.
Note the addition in bold. I don't think I have to tell you why considering that Jesus is constantly referred to as "the son of Man" throughout the book of Mark.
By the time we get to the book of Matthew (the accepted second Gospel), it is evident that [some] Christians began to believe that Jesus did not BECOME the son of God at his baptism. They now believed he was the son of God at his birth and Luke continues this thought hence the need for the story of the Virgin Birth which is completely absent from the earlier Gospel of Mark who does not need it.
When we get to the Gospel of John, which is dramatically different from the other Gospels, there is no story of a Virgin Birth and there's no story of Jesus being anointed at some point in his life as a son of God. What we now have is an evolved version of Jesus that became the ACCEPTED version of Roman Christianity. Jesus has NO origin. He existed from eternity and is God himself.
So in summary, this is how the 4 Gospels view Jesus:
Mark - Jesus becomes the son of God (anointed Christ) at his baptism.
Matthew/Luke - Jesus IS the son of God from birth.
John - Jesus is God himself and existed from eternity past.
This is just one VERY important example of why the Gospels should be read vertically, representing different or evolving concepts of Jesus. When read this way, there are NO contradictions per se. Rather, we have different schools of thought that evolved over time.
I don't expect anyone here to say this makes sense or has some credibility, but I might live long enough to hear that it did for someone someday. lol
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 05-15-2010 at 11:10 AM..
When one looks up Greek or Hebrew words in such helps as a Lexicon or Theological Dictionary, and to a lesser degree even with usage reporting like Strong's dictionaries, we discover there are usually a number of words that can and have been used to translate that word. This is where "the truth" gets muddled with men's opinions. As much as possible, after canvassing all its occurences, one single word should be assigned to each underlying word, which is the Concordant Literal method of translating and it works very well indeed.
But what I find incredible in choosing the most appropriate word to translate with, what some do, and insist everybody else ought to do also, is to choose the worst, the most evil word possible. That is supposed to be the mind of Christ!? I'd hate to be subject to their judgments on my life!
When one looks up Greek or Hebrew words in such helps as a Lexicon or Theological Dictionary, and to a lesser degree even with usage reporting like Strong's dictionaries, we discover there are usually a number of words that can and have been used to translate that word. This is where "the truth" gets muddled with men's opinions. As much as possible, after canvassing all its occurences, one single word should be assigned to each underlying word, which is the Concordant Literal method of translating and it works very well indeed.
But what I find incredible in choosing the most appropriate word to translate with, what some do, and insist everybody else ought to do also, is to choose the worst, the most evil word possible. That is supposed to be the mind of Christ!? I'd hate to be subject to their judgments on my life!
That reminds me of what I have been accused of in the past, although not so much anymore. People always asked why I had such dark thoughts.
I took the Bible VERY SERIOUSLY without understanding God's character, and I took the things I was taught by tradition WAY more seriously than the teachers and preachers that brought me the message. Hmmmm.......
LOL...I owe you something, right? Blame it on the g'friends b'day today.
Significant others always come before internet iou's. That's definitely a commandment.
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And yes, Virginia, I mean Insane, there is a God after all!!!
(Oh, and I even mean it.)
