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Old 05-12-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
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The link below is to a website that claims the 2nd return of Christ is not a literal physical one, but rather instead refers to the appearance of Christ in the hearts of believers. IE: a spiritual return only. Do you think this could be true? I neither agree nor disagree with that claim, just saying it's an interesting position, and I personally have no hardfast set opinion. The site itself is truly immense, and has, IMO, many interesting views that may or may not be true. It would take weeks (if not months) to read through everything there.

The Second Appearance of Jesus

Your thoughts?


Bud
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Well, Bud.....IMO there is just too much biblical proof of a physical appearance and that makes this complete nonsense to me.

What about Armageddon? Is that spiritual also? If you spiritualize Christ's second coming then you pretty much have to spiritualize everything else too. And to me that would be taking away from the Bible and Christ's glorious 2nd coming.
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:32 PM
 
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This may be true See Jesus told Disciple Thomas in John 20:29...``Jesus said unto him Thomas, because thou hast seen me thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen and yet believed``.... see Jesus can do the work of straightening out the devil and saving his Church from disappearing at his secondcoming without appearing to people, some people may be called to see Jesus at this time .....Most people will be waiting in the rapture or being martyred or hiding out in prayer helping the lost......BUT Everyone who ever lived will have to see Jesus at the Judgement Day of the Lord God like it or not......
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:30 PM
 
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To understand the comings of God we must see if they harmonize with previous comings of God. Scripture must interpret scripture.

To understand the "comings" of God in the New Testament such as the "second appearing" in Hebrews 9 and the "coming" in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 we must see the comings of God in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 13:10, 13—judgment of Babylon (539 or 460 B.C.)

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

Isaiah 34:4—judgment of Edom (late 6th century B.C.)

4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Ezekiel 32:7—judgment of Egypt (568 B.C.)

7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
and the moon will not give its light.

Nahum 1:4-5 judgment of Nineveh (612 B.C.)

4 He rebukes the sea and dries it up;
he makes all the rivers run dry.
Bashan and Carmel wither
and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.

5 The mountains quake before him
and the hills melt away.
The earth trembles at his presence,
the world and all who live in it.

Joel 2:10—judgment of Judah (586 B.C.)

10 Before them the earth shakes,
the sky trembles,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.


None of the Old Testament "comings" of God in judgement ever occurred in the physical manifestation of "celestial events" but God did not lie. God did judge the nations He prophecied against since:
  • NONE of the empires He spoke the judgements against exist today.
  • God was angry with the THEN existing empires when He spoke against them. He was not angry at empires thousands of years later(if they weren't fulfilled.)

The "comings" of God in the Old Testament may not have been physical comings of God but they were physically judged through other means:
  • God always judged nations through heathan armies such as Medo-Persia who conquered Babylon and the Assyrian empire who conquered most of the empires in Isaiah.

If God's "comings" in the Old Testament were NEVER physical manifestations of His coming and always through heathan armies then the language used in the New Testament must be in harmony with the Old Testament "comings" of God(scripture interpreting scripture.)

Did God destroy Christ rejecting Israel and the temple as prophecied in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 exactly as He said He would, within a generation(40 years)? Yes! It already historically happened!

Did God use a heathan army to judge Israel for disobedience as He did the other nations in the Old Testament? Of course! He used the armies of Rome to destroy the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. just as He used heathan armies to judge unfaithful nations in the Old Testament.

We have perfect harmony with the Old Testament "comings" of God. They were never physical but He did indeed judge them already through heathan nations and yet none of the celestial events such as the stars falling, sun not giving light or cloud comings of God ever physically happened.

A jew in the 1st century when hearing Christ's prophecies would have immediately been reminded of the "comings" of God in the Old Testament/Torah. They would have understood that Christ was using Old Testament "judgement language" used by Isaiah, Amos, Nahum etc.

The reason we do not understand the "comings" of God is because:

1) We do not understand the Old Testament "comings" of God as where a
jew would have understand the language being used by Christ was Old
Old Testament "judgement language".

2) We ignore the clear language of Christ when He said it would happen:

a) Within a Generation(40 years)
b) The Kingdom of God IS at hand
c) things that are SHORTLY to happen....the time IS near

3) We assume that God is talking to the 21st Century(or beyond) when the language used is clear it was "near" or "close" to those that FIRST heard it which was in the 1st Century, not 2000+ years later.

Why not see the "comings" of God in the Old Testament first before assuming that they had to be physical when they never were in the Old Testament?

The article is not correct in that the "second appearing" was to be fulfilled in the destruction of the last sign of the Old Covenant, the temple in Jerusalem. It was NOT in our hearts but in the judgement of Christ rejecting ethnic Israel through the heathan army of Rome in 70 A.D. just as it was always done in the Old Testament judgements.

This is in perfect harmony with the Old Testament "comings" of God and in perfect harmony with WHEN God said it would happen.

Just my opinion.
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Christ never said He would return bodily.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
 
257 posts, read 366,831 times
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The second appearing of Jesus Christ has not yet happened. When it does, we will see Him with our eyes. Do not be decieved. The fact of the second appearing of Jesus Lord, has been attacked since the 1st century AD. We must look forward to His literal appearing on the clouds of glory. I would stay away from sites that teach such false doctrines as a non literal appearing of Jesus.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
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4 stages to the Christian life: Christ reveals Himself to us. Then He reveals Himself in us. Third, He reveals Himself as us. And finally, He reveals Himself through or out from us.

There you have the manifestation of the sons of God, which creation is groaning and longing for (Rom 8). His coming is both individual to us, then - we believe - is a corporate event, but it all is spiritual.

Christians are busy looking for an external manifestation to come and snatch them physically away, when the work of God is within us. His plan is to use His body (the sons) to bring liberation to those in bondage. We pray for an anointing, but we don't want all of Him?

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Old 05-15-2010, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
The link below is to a website that claims the 2nd return of Christ is not a literal physical one, but rather instead refers to the appearance of Christ in the hearts of believers. IE: a spiritual return only. Do you think this could be true? I neither agree nor disagree with that claim, just saying it's an interesting position, and I personally have no hardfast set opinion. The site itself is truly immense, and has, IMO, many interesting views that may or may not be true. It would take weeks (if not months) to read through everything there.

The Second Appearance of Jesus

Your thoughts?


Bud
I can't go along with a non-physical return of Christ. I'd have to ignore far too much scripture to believe that. Besides, the Spirit of Christ has been in the hearts of believers since the beginning, so that would further discount the claims of the article.
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:00 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'd have to ignore far too much scripture to believe that.
Post it, and let's discuss.
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
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Mark 13:24-26 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Acts 1:9-11 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

These seem to pretty clearly speak of an actual physical return. And then, of course, there's Revelation, but I'm not up to discussing Revelation today.
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