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Old 05-13-2010, 11:12 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,687,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
and how beautiful it is when one of God's children actually begins to BELIEVE that he IS a "Child of God!!"


Yes, not believing in God does not change the fact that he is father.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:15 AM
 
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We are either children of God or children of the devil. There's no in between. We are either on the narrow road to life or the broad road to destruction. How can we know who we belong to?

1 John 3
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
[19] And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
[20] And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Last edited by scgraham; 05-13-2010 at 11:46 AM..
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:54 AM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,455,126 times
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Default June 'child of God' Update: When she's wrong, the first to admit it:

Alas, the error-ridden June is back, having just poured her way through the entire book of 1 John. (A major accomplishment for any nonbeliever, if you ask the June!)

So let's face it: June was totally wrong in her understanding of what constitutes a "child of God" in her conversation with her friend the other night. June's 'perspective' as regards who is or is not a 'child of God' went somewhat as follows:

It makes no darn sense to June that IF Jesus was God, and IF Jesus truly died for everyone's sins and salvation, and IF that was done as a supreme act of love, and IF it was done as an all-encompassing act, and IF the resurrection actually took place (we won't go there, as that's far beyond 'just June's' oh so limited understanding!) but IF all of that is real, true, then:

Wouldn't that somehow mean that Christ's death --for ALL mankind-- would somehow imply that ALL are in some respect a "child of God?" I mean, Jesus either died for all, or He didn't. He either died for all sinners, in an act of mind defying sacrifice, or he didn't. Since the bible says He did, then what's the deal? He either did, or he didn't. The difficulty June is having is that if one accepts all of the above premises, then why is there a further cavaet, or footnote, as to who thus constitutes a "child of God?"

Perhaps June was just 'putting the cart before the horse.' More than likely, the naive atheist was coming from a standpoint of reason as regards what the bible states. June thought that "everyone" meant everyone, irregardless of whether or not they as yet possessed a belief in, knowledge of, or even a conscious understanding and acceptance of who Christ was, and what He did. (And more importantly, why.) In June's limited atheist mindset, she had assumed all along that if anyone deserved to be called a "child of God" it would, in fact, also include all those unkowing individuals for whom Christ already sacrificed Himself for....For instance, the heroin addict who is homeless and sits on a park bench shooting himself up. The homeless. Those who abuse themselves for having been abused themselves, and thus turn that abuse once again upon others. Those individuals ("sinners?") who, in their desperation, resort to desperate measures (which most Christians would perhaps be more inclined to label 'the work of the devil') when all the while, June would regard that as human beings needing to do what they need to do in order to survive; stay alive.

It would seem to June that "the Spirit" would exist independent of one's personal knowledge of it. Again, it either does, or does not exist, and one's "knowing of" (or not) would have no impact on it's very existence. Such that (just like the prior death of Jesus) it either is, or it isn't. But to superimpose arbitrary 'conditions' if you will, only muddies the waters, and lends to confusion. So June's abandoning that notion that Christ died for EVERYONE and thereby everyone (whether they know it or not, whether they accept it or not) would have been included/accepted as being "children of God."

Oh well.

It was a good little notion while it lasted. June will re-contact the person she had the conversation with and do the humble thing and admit she was gravely mistaken on this one, and that her understanding was based more out of ignorance, or quite possibly having forgotten much of the theology she once knew.

--And yet, isn't it funny that just one line from a song from long ago is what continues to resonate through June's mind: "I came upon a child of God, (s)he was walking along the road. I asked where are you going, and this (s)he told me...."


June: still walking.


~But not a child of God in her trek...


Take gentle care.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:20 PM
 
5,430 posts, read 4,668,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Alas, the error-ridden June is back, having just poured her way through the entire book of 1 John. (A major accomplishment for any nonbeliever, if you ask the June!)
The Book of 1 John spells it out very clearly. The Book of Romans does an excellent job as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
For instance, the heroin addict who is homeless and sits on a park bench shooting himself up. The homeless. Those who abuse themselves for having been abused themselves, and thus turn that abuse once again upon others. Those individuals ("sinners?") who, in their desperation, resort to desperate measures (which most Christians would perhaps be more inclined to label 'the work of the devil') when all the while, June would regard that as human beings needing to do what they need to do in order to survive; stay alive.
Not only did Jesus shed His blood to forgive sinners, but His blood was shed to set them completely free from sin. There's miracle-working power in the faith of the blood of the Lamb. This was Jesus' mission. It's available to everyone. However, it is all conditional; we have to want to be delivered; otherwise, we simply run back to our old sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
So June's abandoning that notion that Christ died for EVERYONE and thereby everyone (whether they know it or not, whether they accept it or not) would have been included/accepted as being "children of God."
Jesus' deliverance is available to anyone, but it must be claimed. Just as you would claim an inhertiance in a will, you have to claim what Jesus paid for 2000 years ago in the New Testament. If we don't claim it, then it is just words on paper. The Word must come alive in hearts to make us new creations in Christ.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:33 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,410,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Alas, the error-ridden June is back, having just poured her way through the entire book of 1 John. (A major accomplishment for any nonbeliever, if you ask the June!)

So let's face it: June was totally wrong in her understanding of what constitutes a "child of God" in her conversation with her friend the other night. June's 'perspective' as regards who is or is not a 'child of God' went somewhat as follows:

It makes no darn sense to June that IF Jesus was God, and IF Jesus truly died for everyone's sins and salvation, and IF that was done as a supreme act of love, and IF it was done as an all-encompassing act, and IF the resurrection actually took place (we won't go there, as that's far beyond 'just June's' oh so limited understanding!) but IF all of that is real, true, then:

Wouldn't that somehow mean that Christ's death --for ALL mankind-- would somehow imply that ALL are in some respect a "child of God?" I mean, Jesus either died for all, or He didn't. He either died for all sinners, in an act of mind defying sacrifice, or he didn't. Since the bible says He did, then what's the deal? He either did, or he didn't.

Exactly! That is why we have two seemingly different views of the "children of God" in scripture... all humanity, or only those who believe in Christ and follow His commandments of love -- These two views will converge when God converts and shows every single human who He is and what His nature is. Then all will be children of God in both senses of the word....





Quote:
Perhaps June was just 'putting the cart before the horse.' More than likely, the naive atheist was coming from a standpoint of reason as regards what the bible states. June thought that "everyone" meant everyone,
Hmmm, "everyone" means "everyone"? What a novel concept! Words actually mean something!

Quote:
...irregardless of whether or not they as yet possessed a belief in, knowledge of, or even a conscious understanding and acceptance of who Christ was, and what He did. (And more importantly, why.) In June's limited atheist mindset, she had assumed all along that if anyone deserved to be called a "child of God" it would, in fact, also include all those unkowing individuals for whom Christ already sacrificed Himself for....For instance, the heroin addict who is homeless and sits on a park bench shooting himself up. The homeless. Those who abuse themselves for having been abused themselves, and thus turn that abuse once again upon others. Those individuals ("sinners?") who, in their desperation, resort to desperate measures (which most Christians would perhaps be more inclined to label 'the work of the devil') when all the while, June would regard that as human beings needing to do what they need to do in order to survive; stay alive.

It would seem to June that "the Spirit" would exist independent of one's personal knowledge of it. Again, it either does, or does not exist, and one's "knowing of" (or not) would have no impact on it's very existence. Such that (just like the prior death of Jesus) it either is, or it isn't. But to superimpose arbitrary 'conditions' if you will, only muddies the waters, and lends to confusion. So June's abandoning that notion that Christ died for EVERYONE and thereby everyone (whether they know it or not, whether they accept it or not) would have been included/accepted as being "children of God."
Are you sure you are an atheist?
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:01 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,455,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Are you sure you are an atheist?
Yup.
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:24 PM
 
5,739 posts, read 4,588,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Exactly! That is why we have two seemingly different views of the "children of God" in scripture... all humanity, or only those who believe in Christ and follow His commandments of love -- These two views will converge when God converts and shows every single human who He is and what His nature is. Then all will be children of God in both senses of the word....
YES! This is precisely how I see it, legoman.
Thanks, that was a great post.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,571,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
More than likely, the naive atheist was coming from a standpoint of reason as regards what the bible states. June thought that "everyone" meant everyone, irregardless of whether or not they as yet possessed a belief in, knowledge of, or even a conscious understanding and acceptance of who Christ was, and what He did.
The answer is simple and profound.

Every person is actually two people or (more precisely) lives in two dimensions.

The hidden 'man' of the heart is the spirit-man (offspring of God). The outer shell (where we experience conscious physical reality) is the offspring of man (dust) and is contrary (opposed) to spirit life.

The biblical trump card in this universal childhood is Paul's statement on Mars hill speaking to non-believers "For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'" (Acts 17:28)

So in at least ONE sense, June is absolutely correct.

Now, when a child of God emerges from the darkened shell of dust (rebirth) we say "Look - there's is a child of God!" (ie: they are exhibiting the nature of God).

Yet - when that same person was/is encased in carnal dust-thinking we say - "oooo yuck - NOT a child of God!"

Remember - even the cool disciple Peter who had the inside scoop was addressed as "satan" (opposer) when he cherished carnal thinking above spirit thinking. And later Paul busted on him for doing it yet again in Galatians 2:11.

So - don't feel bad. Although it takes some insight, it does actually make sense when all the angles are observed.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,001 times
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We are ALL God's creatures, but we are lost, wandering, doing our own thing in the dark. He wants His children back! He wants us to understand our darkness when we are without Him.

Acts 17:

26; From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

27; God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Here we find that God is truly wanting each one of us to find Him! He wants His estranged children to be reconciled to Him. The emptiness and sadness that many or most of us feel or have felt, at one time or another, means something.

I think those verses are talking about all those fun philosophical questions that seem to arise in our brains in the middle of the night when we are trying to sleep.

Why am I here?

What happens when I die?

What is my purpose?

Why is there evil and what is good?

How can something exist ETERNALLY?!

Who or what created me and this Universe?

What is the character of this creator?

How can I find out what He likes or doesn't like; we can do this by looking at his creation, the orderliness and fine detail, studying the people that seem to know Him, or by studying what inspired people have written about Him.

Everyone means everyone. Each of us means each of us. All truly means all!
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