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Old 05-16-2010, 04:56 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,114,658 times
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"All judgement has been given unto the Son."

"The Son judges no man."

So who will do the judging??
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:58 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,575,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Heartsong is referring to the scenario of someone who "repents" on their deathbed will spend eternity in heaven - a murderer of a girl who was an unbeliever who he raped and murdered, and that girl will spend eternity being tormented in hell.
Yes, that's precisely what I meant. I didn't say it very well. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

Heartsong
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,541 posts, read 31,936,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
It is quite wrong to say being a good or evil person has nothing to do with what happens to us. Jesus also said this: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29, AV) (The word "damnation" here should be "judging.")
No it is not wrong. Salvation and rewards are two different things, and you are talking about rewards, which are based on your works. Without salvation there are no rewards, so it is not wrong to say that simply being a nice guys won't help you in these matters. Righteous deeds done by unbelievers are like filthy rags to God.

Think about Bill Gates, and assume he is no a believer and picture him donate 500 million dollars to help the poor, which is a nice thing to do, do you think God would reward him in heaven for it? No, because if he is an unbeliever, he would not make it to heaven in the first place. Good deeds do not buy salvation. A person is saved by Christ, not by himself, and all you need to do is ask him to save you, there is no works needed for that process.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:03 AM
 
3,581 posts, read 457,400 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
"All judgement has been given unto the Son."

"The Son judges no man."

So who will do the judging??
Indeed ......

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:53 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,447,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Mar 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (Young's Literal)

Mar 3:29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Twin, I wonder why your NIV and KJV above left out a very important phrase: "never be forgiven for the eon"? Do you think it is because it does not fit in with their theology? In the Greek "eis ton aion" is in Mark 3:29.
Also, pardon is the privelidge of a king or governor. The person who commits the blasphemy of the holy spirit will not be receiving a pardon for that crime.
In our judicial system if a person commits a crime he can be pardoned. Presidents of the U.S.A. almost always pardon a whole slew of people at the end of their tenure. And if they are not pardoned? then what? They most do the full time of their crime. And what is that time? Looky here:

Mat 12:32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending."

So the length of time is given that they will not be pardoned: this eon and the eon which is impending. The impending eon is the 1000 year reign of Christ. So they will not be pardoned for that whole eon as well.
What happens to people who are not pardoned? They eventually get out of prison once their sentence has been fulfilled.
Quote:
Eusebius,
Another incorrect view of Biblical teaching is a literal "1000 year reign of Christ" aka Millennialism. The historical teaching in Christianity has been that Jesus taught Amillennialism. (but that is for a different OP)
I think that believing the Bible is more important than believing some historical teaching. Also, if you will do a study of the most ancient church teaching you will study up on the Chilliasts (thousand year-ists) who believed in a coming millennial reign of Christ. It was Augustine who did not believe in a coming millennium and taught the Church-Age view.
Here is something interesting about chilliasm and how it predates the Church:

What is Millennialism, where does the term come from, and when did this theory originate

Rev 20:2-7 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is
the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years." (3) And
he casts him into the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him
(lest he should still be deceiving the nations) until the thousand years
should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time."
(4) And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment
was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the
testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do
not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on
their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a
thousand years." (5) (The rest of the dead do not live until the
thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. (6)
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over
these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." (7)
And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be
loosed out of his jail."



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
What happens to people who are not pardoned? They eventually get out of prison once their sentence has been fulfilled.
Quote:
Wrong answer.... again ....They don't get out. "Never means never"
Moderator cut: Deleted as off topic/rude
No, "shall not be being pardoned" means "shall not be being pardoned."

So you believe that in our judicial system if a judge says to a criminal who is sentenced to prison for this decade and the decade to come that if he is never to be pardoned that that means he will never get out of prison?

I wish I had read what the mod cut out as to what was rude. Why do I always miss the good stuff?
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,114,658 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I think that believing the Bible is more important than believing some historical teaching. Also, if you will do a study of the most ancient church teaching you will study up on the Chilliasts (thousand year-ists) who believed in a coming millennial reign of Christ. It was Augustine who did not believe in a coming millennium and taught the Church-Age view.
Here is something interesting about chilliasm and how it predates the Church:

What is Millennialism, where does the term come from, and when did this theory originate

Rev 20:2-7 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is
the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years." (3) And
he casts him into the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him
(lest he should still be deceiving the nations) until the thousand years
should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time."
(4) And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment
was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the
testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do
not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on
their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a
thousand years." (5) (The rest of the dead do not live until the
thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. (6)
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over
these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." (7)
And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be
loosed out of his jail."







No, "shall not be being pardoned" means "shall not be being pardoned."

So you believe that in our judicial system if a judge says to a criminal who is sentenced to prison for this decade and the decade to come that if he is never to be pardoned that that means he will never get out of prison?

I wish I had read what the mod cut out as to what was rude. Why do I always miss the good stuff?
I'm wondering if it's wise to compare God to the american judicial system..
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:13 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,757,325 times
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Wouldn't it be comparing it to ANY judicial system? It's not just American. I think it is safe to say we can compare it to God's because after all, He created us and we are made in His image.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:19 AM
 
2,991 posts, read 2,261,752 times
Reputation: 469
[quote=Eusebius;14197531]I think that believing the Bible is more important than believing some historical teaching. Also, if you will do a study of the most ancient church teaching you will study up on the Chilliasts (thousand year-ists) who believed in a coming millennial reign of Christ. It was Augustine who did not believe in a coming millennium and taught the Church-Age view.
Here is something interesting about chilliasm and how it predates the Church:

What is Millennialism, where does the term come from, and when did this theory originate

Rev 20:2-7 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is
the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years." (3) And
he casts him into the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him
(lest he should still be deceiving the nations) until the thousand years
should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time."
(4) And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment
was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the
testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do
not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on
their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a
thousand years." (5) (The rest of the dead do not live until the
thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. (6)
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over
these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." (7)
And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be
loosed out of his jail."







No, "shall not be being pardoned" means "shall not be being pardoned."

So you believe that in our judicial system if a judge says to a criminal who is sentenced to prison for this decade and the decade to come that if he is never to be pardoned that that means he will never get out of prison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I wish I had read what the mod cut out as to what was rude. Why do I always miss the good stuff?
after the
original author's thoughts have been edited by someone else it's not really worth reading anyway, it's not the same and should be wholely deleted.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:32 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,348,272 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohKnip View Post
i know you have to accept jesus as your lord and savior to make it into heaven but is it really this way?

2 examples

1. rapist/murder gets sent to prison but before he is executed he truly confesses all his sins he is sent to heaven?

2. (hypothetical situation) so some guy comes up with the cure for cancer is charitable all his life never harmed a soul and loved everyone he knew with all of his being, but he is atheist...hes burns in hell?

i know its supposed to be yes and yes to both questions but am i a bad person for having a hard time accepting that you could have done the worst thing ever been the worst person ever but right as your about to die completely ask for forgiveness and give yourself to god your all good but if you don't believe no matter how great you were in life hell for you?
I see and understand what you are saying, but we are not the ones who are in charge of judging. God says there is not one who is righteous, so none of us are even spotless enough to make it to heaven without Jesus.

If you look at your life and mine God says we have done things that are offensive to Him, offensive enough to send ourselves far away from His presence, but in His loving kindness He love us anyway and doesn't punish us for what we deserve if we trust and depend on Him.

Jesus was on the cross and wasn't even condemning the people, so why should we condemn when we don't even have the right or the power to do so. I have had people in my family murdered by others, but God said I must forgive them, and vengeance is His.

Saul was a murderer of Christians, and God met Him on the road to Damascus and changed His life forever. Saul / Paul was a changed man and lived his life for the Lord. God didn't throw his past in his face because God forgives us of our sins.

Just imagine if God kept throwing your past in your face you would be condemned without anyone to help you. Just think about the most offensive thing that you have done in your life that was offensive to God, and imagine if God refused to forgive you.

People use the same tired old dead saying, well at least I am not a murderer, but God even said we can murder people with out mouths. God said in His Word that people who do things we don't consider bad will not inherit the Kingdom of God, things like adultery, thieves, drunkards and so on. So, will there be people in heave that use to be a drunk, well yes, because the person trusted in Jesus and repented? So, it is not up to us to say who God can and will forgive. He forgave us, and compared to how we look to a holy God, we are dirty, a mess without Him. So, if God want to forgive a murder oh well, I think about where I came from and I am so thankful for His mercy. I never killed a person, but my past is not clean, thank God for His loving kindness.

My life or yours isn't spotless and we are not perfect. Yes murder is wrong, but God says if we repent and mean it, He will forgive us.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:34 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,348,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post

I think you are reading something into this that just isn't there. What I see, in that scripture, is that one day everyone will have to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is real, and bow before Him. That Jesus is indeed Lord and not some made-up myth, not that "everyone will be saved". I think it simply means everyone will have to acknowledge God as being God...as being real, whether they were an athiest, agnostic, whatever, during their life on earth. Furthermore, we all will have to give an account of our actions, good or bad, to the Lord...

Bud
Nothing or anyone can stand in His presence. Either the person will willfully bow or by force. But you know, there are some that read and say what is not there.
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