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Old 05-17-2010, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 847,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No it is not wrong. Salvation and rewards are two different things, and you are talking about rewards, which are based on your works. Without salvation there are no rewards, so it is not wrong to say that simply being a nice guys won't help you in these matters. Righteous deeds done by unbelievers are like filthy rags to God.

Think about Bill Gates, and assume he is no a believer and picture him donate 500 million dollars to help the poor, which is a nice thing to do, do you think God would reward him in heaven for it? No, because if he is an unbeliever, he would not make it to heaven in the first place. Good deeds do not buy salvation. A person is saved by Christ, not by himself, and all you need to do is ask him to save you, there is no works needed for that process.
So, you are saying it is quite RIGHT to say being a good or evil person has nothing to do with what happens to us? that "it is not wrong" to say this? That the apostle Paul was wrong when he says: "...God; Who will render to EVERY man according to his deeds..." (Rm 2:5-6) You say Jesus was a liar in the last chapter of the Bible?! "...my reward is with me, to give EVERY man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12) But YOU say: God is mocked and you do not reap what you sow!

To change your mind about sin and to come to Jesus is a work for which we will be judged. It is to be considered along with every thing else we think, say and do. God is the Judge. Many have taken in their mouths what they claim is the judgment of God but have been found out as false guides.

Think of the face of an ostrich, "Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding." (Job 39:17) This is where so many are because of the doctrine they have been subjected to. Again and again the Bible says, "GOD IS WITHOUT PARTIALITY." Yet it is taught that, schizophrenic like, He has two thrones and two laws by which He judges.

If an ordinary man did as wickedly as possible for a million years he still would not come anywhere close to deserving an INFINITE reward, ceaseless torture for ever. Then, we are supposed to believe the most wicked person, without changing, only getting a certain "right idea" about Jesus must receive an INFINITE bliss of "heaven." What these ideas illustrate is seen in the face of the ostrich.

"Justice" is represented by a blindfolded (hence, impartial) lady holding a balance. The balance means one apple on one side equals one apple on the other, and it is without respect of persons. Justice is never an INFINITE number of never ending apples in payment for stealing one apple! The Bible does not teach that sin is INFINITE. Nor does it teach that the payment for sin is INFINITE. If I steal an apple God does not require INFINITE never ending repayment of apples. That is not justice. God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word. To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed. To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly.

God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves. They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned. Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.) If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution. That is God's sanctions for thieves. In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement. What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it. The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite. Without Divine intervention the result is infinitude of evil which ignores what that would do to God.

People are instead taught that God is mocked and you do not reap what you sow!

It is perhaps wrong of me to feel like it is so futile to tell some people the truth. There's just nothing like bad religion to twist people's thoughts and harden them against hearing the truth!
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Florida
58,816 posts, read 32,264,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
So, you are saying it is quite RIGHT to say being a good or evil person has nothing to do with what happens to us? that "it is not wrong" to say this? That the apostle Paul was wrong when he says: "...God; Who will render to EVERY man according to his deeds..." (Rm 2:5-6) You say Jesus was a liar in the last chapter of the Bible?! "...my reward is with me, to give EVERY man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12) But YOU say: God is mocked and you do not reap what you sow!!
I said Jesus is a liar? Really? Please show me where I called him a liar. Thanks.


Thanks for quoting Romans. However, you left out the critical part. When you look at the whole text, it doesn't quite say what you claim it says (sinners rewarded according to their works). It says what I said. It clearly says those who reject Christ will face wrath and anger.

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.



And of course since God did not want people to misunderstand this critical message, so it is repeated in New Testament to no end.

For example:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And there are dozens and dozens of more....


And then you quoted Revelations, again leaving out the critical parts:

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


ONLY believers will receive rewards according to their works, but unbelievers cannot receive them, because they are destined to eternal punishment.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:43 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,939,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post


ONLY believers will receive rewards according to their works, but unbelievers cannot receive them, because they are destined to eternal punishment.
well if thats what you beleive then i feel sorry for ya,must be hard thinking God has set up life for people to suffer eternally and not to be able to show mercy/commpassion/patience and tolerance to His own kids,what would you do??? and guess what if you come up with a better system then that makes you better than God and that is immpossible,so where does that leave you and your vision of God..........imperfect???mmm maybe its time to reconsider who has interpreted your vision of God!!!!!! ...............and why would God destine anyone to eternal punishment,if they are destined then that means no matter what they are going there but God knows what people's choices will be before they enter here,so God is putting people here,just like you said,to be destined for eternal punishment,sounds satanic to me.
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 847,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I said Jesus is a liar? Really? Please show me where I called him a liar. Thanks.
This is a repeat from above and it was also quoted to you initially (in post#69, p.7): >>>You say Jesus was a liar in the last chapter of the Bible?! "...my reward is with me, to give EVERY man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12)<<< These words of Jesus you proceed to deny again in the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Thanks for quoting Romans. However, you left out the critical part. When you look at the whole text, it doesn't quite say what you claim it says (sinners rewarded according to their works). It says what I said. It clearly says those who reject Christ will face wrath and anger.
What part of "EVERY MAN" don't you understand?! or as you went on to quote, "to each person?!". . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
When I quoted that (in post#69, p.7) my comment following it was: >>>For us to think we're righteous or saved because, " I feel a feeling I feel I felt before," or some man's doctrine of what he calls grace will not prevent our being brought before God for judgement.<<<

The point that seems to continue escaping you is in vs.6 above: God "will give to each person according to what he has done." and, from Concordant Literal: "...God, Who will be paying each one in accord with his act..." (actually, it is across vss.5 and 6 of Rm 1.) "Each," or "each one," means everyone, which is how King James renders it: "...God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds..."

My answer to you in this post so far is what I was referring to (in post #69, p.9) when I said: >>>"It is perhaps wrong of me to feel like it is so futile to tell some people the truth."<<< I don't know how to state the obvious without seeming like I'm attacking you. My effort here is to get you to discern what you yourself are saying as well as what I am saying. Repeating your words and repeating myself is my present attempt to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And of course since God did not want people to misunderstand this critical message, so it is repeated in New Testament to no end.
Your saying "no end" is like many times in the English Bible when it says "for ever," or, "everlasting." It is obviously and frankly untrue. Just what do you mean by, "This critical message?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
For example:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Here is from the KJV: [vs.41] "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
In English here the fire is said to be everlasting. There is no mention of the duration of suffering, or even if there is any at all for the nations (the "goats," whole nations,!!! according to the text) that go there. We are justified in thinking they died, if this is the second death, the lake of fire; though this is not said here. The word order is the other way around in the Greek text. It has "fire eonian." That means, "fire that pertains to or is appropriate to a particular period of timel."

[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:31-46 KJV)

Notice: Jesus' judgment of the nations was according to WHAT THEY DID OR DID NOT DO!!! Their "faith" is NEVER mentioned!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And there are dozens and dozens of more....
Dozens, plural twice; that is a minimum of four dozens, or 48 instances. This is concerning what? ceaseless torture for ever of the "wicked?" The English word "hell?" Here's something for your "critical message". . . Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever
by Gary Amirault (which he wants copied as much as possible!) His introduction is: "The word "heaven" appears in the Bible hundreds of times. If "Hell" is the fate of those who do not accept Jesus as their Lord, how often do you think God should put it in the Bible Scriptures warning all the citizens of the world the consequences of failing to accept Jesus as their Savior? As least as many times as the word "heaven"? At least once in each book in the Bible? Thousands of times? The FACTS may shock you."

Here's another url for you
Charts for Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus (http://www.tentmaker.org/what/HellStudy/HellCharts.htm - broken link)
"The Hell Words of the Bible" by Gary Amirault. Here's his introduction: "The following Charts contain all the words in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures which are translated Hell in some English Bible translations. Tentmaker Ministries prepared this material. Please refer to the link at the bottom which contains a long list of Bible translations which do not contain the word Hell from cover to cover. One day all correctly translated Bible versions will be without the pagan Hell and the pagan concept of everlasting punishment."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And then you quoted Revelations, again leaving out the critical parts:

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
It is "Revelation" (singular,) which means unveiling what is already present, not something coming here from someplace else.

I believe in even every "jot and tittle" as our translations have it. Consider exactly what is written that you call, "The critical parts." 15"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."The "IF" in this verse was never answered. You would be adding to what is written if you say 1, or 2, or a 1,000, or a million, or billions, as many unfortunately have falsely attributed to God's nature. This book has Jesus saying: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book..." (Rev 22:18, AV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
ONLY believers will receive rewards according to their works, but unbelievers cannot receive them, because they are destined to eternal punishment.
Ah, but here you are again, besides others, calling Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus liars. God IS mocked and, who are you saying doesn't reap what they sow? Does this mean you believe there is injustice with God?

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 05-17-2010 at 11:17 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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JamesRhodes,

Every man, all, the whole world and earth, etc hardly ever denote what we understand it as in English FYI
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Florida
58,816 posts, read 32,264,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
This is a repeat from above and it was also quoted to you initially (in post#69, p.7): >>>You say Jesus was a liar in the last chapter of the Bible?! "...my reward is with me, to give EVERY man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12)<<< These words of Jesus you proceed to deny again in the following:
Again, show me where I said Jesus is a liar. Show me the exact sentence from me with the word 'liar' in it.

I am asking because I know I never said it. You are making a blatant false accusation here.

Show me comment, or admit you lied. Thank you very much.

Quote:
Your saying "no end" is like many times in the English Bible when it says "for ever," or, "everlasting." It is obviously and frankly untrue. Just what do you mean by, "This critical message?"
The message of the Gospel, which can be summarized in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

What did Dahmler get? He got according to his works: he was sentenced to death. Yes, EVERY KNEE WILL BEND at the day of judgement, and everyone will be judged. If you are not a believer, your reward will be the lake of fire.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-18-2010 at 07:41 AM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Florida
58,816 posts, read 32,264,548 times
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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
well if thats what you beleive then i feel sorry for ya,must be hard thinking God has set up life for people to suffer eternally and not to be able to show mercy/commpassion/patience and tolerance to His own kids,what would you do???
No, it is not hard at all, and the Bible explains very clearly what you should do: believe in him and you will not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16).
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,138,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, it is not hard at all, and the Bible explains very clearly what you should do: believe in him and you will not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16).
Hi Finn,

question for you: if all that is necessary to inherit eternal life is to believe in him, then why did God make such a long book? Why all the fluff? Apparently all of Jesus' teachings are out the door then...

Thanks for your help,
peace,
Brian
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
58,816 posts, read 32,264,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Finn,

question for you: if all that is necessary to inherit eternal life is to believe in him, then why did God make such a long book? Why all the fluff? Apparently all of Jesus' teachings are out the door then...

Thanks for your help,
peace,
Brian
Why would you spin it like that? You asked me a simple question and I gave you a simple answer, so there is no need to spin it like that.

What do you want me to do? Copy and paste the whole new testament for you?
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,138,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why would you spin it like that? You asked me a simple question and I gave you a simple answer, so there is no need to spin it like that.

What do you want me to do? Copy and paste the whole new testament for you?
No spinning, just a simple question. Answer?
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