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Old 05-16-2010, 11:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Eternal Salvation is a free gift and freely offered, but it is conditional; we have to be obedient. Let no man deceive you about the importance of remaining obedient. If we are committing willful sin, then we are ungodly -- whether we profess Jesus as Lord or not.

2 Peter 2
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
[7] And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[8] (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )
[9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

We cannot walk in sin and be a child of God; it's impossible. Don't fall for the deception that states ye shall not surely die; the devil told that to Eve in the very beginning. God does not accept sin. We must be pure, clean and holy.

Eph. 5
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
[7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
[8] For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )
[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
[11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Cor. 6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The children of God are pure, clean and holy, for Jesus' blood has made it so. Bow down in humility and let Jesus make you a new creature in God's image, which is holiness; this is what the born again experience is all about.
It was legalistic people such as yourself who came in behind the Apostle Paul and tried to undo what he had taught. Paul addressed the issue of legalism in the book of Romans. Sin does not cause a believer to lose his salvation. Every single sin that will ever be committed in human history, past, present, and future has already been paid for. God does not judge a second time that which has already been judged.

The only issue is this. Acts 16:31. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Salvation is conditioned only on faith in Christ. Not on avoidance of sin.

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:15 PM
 
1,116 posts, read 994,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
There are people right here on this very forum who believe that faithless babies go to hell.


Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of mans heart is evil from his youth."
Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"
Ephesians 2:3 - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:16 PM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,692,080 times
Reputation: 1120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Sin does not cause a believer to lose his salvation.
Tit. 2
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

If we walk in sin again after being saved, that is evil. Hell will be our destiny if we don't repent, which means abandoning all sin. God and sin don't mix!
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,321 posts, read 21,014,112 times
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Why is it that whenever I ask this question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
If they are not sinless, what sin did they commit?
nobody answers?
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,255,471 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It was legalistic people such as yourself who came in behind the Apostle Paul and tried to undo what he had taught. Paul addressed the issue of legalism in the book of Romans. Sin does not cause a believer to lose his salvation.
...well...let's just see what Paul ACTUALLY taught in Romans...

*Please note: I will quote a verse, and in between them, I will comment...

ROMANS 1:

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

(his human/sinful nature) descended from David, but the pure, holy life that Paul lived and demonstrated was divine...

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:...

(his divine nature) AChristian is obedient. And all true Christians are brought to obedience of the faith, and they are who are effectually called of Jesus Christ. Here is the blessing enjoyed by these who are obedient...1. They are beloved of God, and are members of that body which is beloved. 2. Their responsibility is to be holy, they're called to be saints. These are who Paul honored, by wishing them grace to sanctify their souls, and peace to comfort their hearts, that sprung from the free mercy of God, the reconciled Father of all obedient believers.

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His Name:...

and they (obedient saints) are who are effectually called of Jesus Christ.

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:...

Paul is speaking to the apostles...obedient saints...called of Jesus Christ. (Not all saints are apostles.)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel does not save unconditionally. Belief is a condition...

[belief n. 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in a person or thing; faith. 2. Mental acceptance or CONVICTION IN THE TRUTH...2. Something believed or accepted as true.
conviction n. 1. The act or process of finding or proving guilty. 2. The state of being convicted or so proved. 3. The act or process of convincing. 4. The state of being convinced or persuaded. 5. A fixed or strong belief.
convince tr.v. 1. To bring by argument and evidence to belief; cause to believe something; persuade. Often used with of. 2. Obsolete. To convict. 3. Obsolete. To conquer. To OVERCOME]

...salvation to all who accept it in God's own way...to save every soul that embraces it. The medicine prepared will not cure the patient if it be not taken.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

"...hold the truth in unrighteousness..." Every man has a measure of truth that is revealed to them...See Romans 1:19...Too many refuse to benefit from the light they have been given, and love their darkness that they live in, rather than living in the light. All who do not live up to the knowledge they possess, who do worse than they know, hold the truth in unrighteousness. They obstruct the truth, rather than let it penetrate into their hardened hearts.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God gave them up to uncleaness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and received in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity whisperers.

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant-breakers<<<>>>(my note->those who do not keep the Ten Commandments), without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

ROMANS 2:

2 But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil. to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

ALL WHO SIN...the Jew (which was under the law), AND the Gentile (which was not under the law)...of every nation, age, and description, must realize that the judgment of God will be according to their real character. It couldn't be any clearer! In every WILFUL sin, there is contempt of the goodness of God. And though mans disobedience are of every type...ALL come from the same root. But in TRUE REPENTANCE, there must be hatred of former sinfulness, a CHANGE in the state of the mind, which causes it to choose the good and to refuse the evil. Repentance IS CONVERSION!...AND IS REQUIRED OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING!

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified...)

Paul was saying to the Jews....Their law could not make them righteous unless it was obeyed! To be justified is to be counted righteous, or guiltless, before God. He who has one sin recorded against him is not justified. He whose sins are all blotted out is justified.

The sinner who believes upon Jesus Christ, who clings to the mercy of God with an OBEDIENT, trusting faith, and finds mercy through Christ's redeeming blood, is justified.


...to be continued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Every single sin that will ever be committed in human history, past, present, and future has already been paid for. God does not judge a second time that which has already been judged.
I shall prove otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
The only issue is this. Acts 16:31. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Salvation is conditioned only on faith in Christ. Not on avoidance of sin.
I shall prove otherwise.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-16-2010 at 02:44 PM..
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:29 PM
 
20,360 posts, read 15,747,012 times
Reputation: 7534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...well...let's just see what Paul ACTUALLY taught in Romans...

*Please note: I will quote a verse, and in between them, I will comment...

ROMANS 1:

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

(his human/sinful nature) descended from David, but the pure, holy life that Paul lived and demonstrated was divine...

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:...

(his divine nature) AChristian is obedient. And all true Christians are brought to obedience of the faith, and they are who are effectually called of Jesus Christ. Here is the blessing enjoyed by these who are obedient...1. They are beloved of God, and are members of that body which is beloved. 2. Their responsibility is to be holy, they're called to be saints. These are who Paul honored, by wishing them grace to sanctify their souls, and peace to comfort their hearts, that sprung from the free mercy of God, the reconciled Father of all obedient believers.

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His Name:...

and they (obedient saints) are who are effectually called of Jesus Christ.

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:...

Paul is speaking to the apostles...obedient saints...called of Jesus Christ. (Not all saints are apostles.)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel does not save unconditionally. Belief is a condition...

[belief n. 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in a person or thing; faith. 2. Mental acceptance or CONVICTION IN THE TRUTH...2. Something believed or accepted as true.
conviction n. 1. The act or process of finding or proving guilty. 2. The state of being convicted or so proved. 3. The act or process of convincing. 4. The state of being convinced or persuaded. 5. A fixed or strong belief.
convince tr.v. 1. To bring by argument and evidence to belief; cause to believe something; persuade. Often used with of. 2. Obsolete. To convict. 3. Obsolete. To conquer. To OVERCOME]

...salvation to all who accept it in God's own way...to save every soul that embraces it. The medicine prepared will not cure the patient if it be not taken.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

"...hold the truth in unrighteousness..." Every man has a measure of truth that is revealed to them...See Romans 1:19...Too many refuse to benefit from the light they have been given, and love their darkness that they live in, rather than living in the light. All who do not live up to the knowledge they possess, who do worse than they know, hold the truth in unrighteousness. They obstruct the truth, rather than let it penetrate into their hardened hearts.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God gave them up to uncleaness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and received in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity whisperers.

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant-breakers<<<>>>(my note->those who do not keep the Ten Commandments), without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

ROMANS 2:

2 But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil. to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

ALL WHO SIN...the Jew (which was under the law), AND the Gentile (which was not under the law)...of every nation, age, and description, must realize that the judgment of God will be according to their real character. It couldn't be any clearer! In every WILFUL sin, there is contempt of the goodness of God. And though mans disobedience are of every type...ALL come from the same root. But in TRUE REPENTANCE, there must be hatred of former sinfulness, a CHANGE in the state of the mind, which causes it to choose the good and to refuse the evil. Repentance IS CONVERSION!...AND IS REQUIRED OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING!

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified...)

Paul was saying to the Jews....Their law could not make them righteous unless it was obeyed! To be justified is to be counted righteous, or guiltless, before God. He who has one sin recorded against him is not justified. He whose sins are all blotted out is justified.

The sinner who believes upon Jesus Christ, who clings to the mercy of God with an OBEDIENT, trusting faith, and finds mercy through Christ's redeeming blood, is justified.


...to be continued.


I shall prove otherwise.


I shall prove otherwise.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
The layout of Romans is this. After the introduction in 1:1-17 Paul writes that the whole world is guilty in God's eyes. This is covered from 1:18-3:20. Then pauls writes of justification by faith in Christ, covered in 3:21-5:21. Then he goes into the fact that man is sanctified through Union with Christ, identified with Christ in His death and resurrection, chapters 6 through 8. Then in Chapters 9 through 11, Jewish unbelief is addressed. Following that is the subject of Christian life and service in chapters 12:1-15:13. And then at the end of the book, from chapter 15:14 through 16:27 the outflow of Christian love is covered.

But I'll go to the book of Galatians which will better refute legalism.

From the introduction to Galatians by C. I. Scofield...

At the time Paul was writing, the Galation churches were facing a double threat, involving purity of doctrine and purity of conduct. Certain individuals had come onto the area who ''would pervert the gospel of Christ'' ( 1:7; 5:10). They insisted that, while salvation was of Christ, works were also necessary for salvation. To this Judaizing, i.e. legalistic error, the Galatians were already beginning to yield ( 1:6;3:1), thus returning to a bondage of obvserving days, months, years, times, etc, (4:10). Paul overwhelmingly destroys all arguments in favor of mixing the law with faith by pointing out that Abraham was justified by faith alone 430 years before the givig of the Mosiac law. The apostle answers the complementary error--that a believer is made spiritually mature by keeping the law--by setting forth the truth of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, and the richness of life available when He rules the Christian whom He indwells.

The Epistle may be divided as follows: Introduction, 1:1-5. I. Occasion of the Epistle; the Galatians' Dejparture from the True Gospel, 1:6-9, II. Paul's Defense of His Apostolic Ministry, 1:10-2:21. III. Justifcation Is Wholly by Faith, Apart from the Law, 3:1-24. IV. The Rule of the Believer's life Is Gracious, Not Legal, 3:25-5:1, V. Characteristics Displayed in the Life of a Christian Justified by Faith Alone, 5:2-26, VI. The Outworking of the New Life in Christ Jesus, 6:1-16. Conclusion, 6:17-18.

(New Scofield Reference Edition, part of the introduction to Galatians. p. 1264).

It was with regard to the legalistic Judaizers that Paul directed this curse..

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7) which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8) But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which your received, let him be accursed.

That was Paul's attitude toward those who perverted the Gospel. And he had the legalistic Judaizers in mind when he wrote it.

And that's all that really needs to be said about it.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:46 PM
 
20,360 posts, read 15,747,012 times
Reputation: 7534
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Tit. 2
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

If we walk in sin again after being saved, that is evil. Hell will be our destiny if we don't repent, which means abandoning all sin. God and sin don't mix!
No, hell is not the destiny of the believing sinner. Repentance has to do with having a change of mind about Christ. You didn't believe, and then you heard the Gospel and you believed in Christ. You repented.

Sin in the life of the believer is handled as a family matter. Prov 3:11-12; Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21.

The believer's sins are handled by simply naming them to God in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit and able to resume spiritual advance. It is the principle of 1 John 1:9.

I'm fairly certain that the confirmed legalists won't bother to go into these links and won't heed what is said in them if they do, but for whoever will listen and wants to be straight on the matter of grace, here you go...

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:17 PM
 
701 posts, read 660,345 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
If they are not sinless, what sin did they commit?
For starters, they are completely selfish, and one sin is all that is needed to be in need of a savior.
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:20 PM
 
701 posts, read 660,345 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, hell is not the destiny of the believing sinner. Repentance has to do with having a change of mind about Christ. You didn't believe, and then you heard the Gospel and you believed in Christ. You repented.

Sin in the life of the believer is handled as a family matter. Prov 3:11-12; Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21.

The believer's sins are handled by simply naming them to God in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit and able to resume spiritual advance. It is the principle of 1 John 1:9.

I'm fairly certain that the confirmed legalists won't bother to go into these links and won't heed what is said in them if they do, but for whoever will listen and wants to be straight on the matter of grace, here you go...

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)
Mike, why do you insist on calling obedience, legalism? You know full well that those that truly keep God's 10C do so not in order to be saved, but because they are saved. I know that you know the difference between the two, don't you?
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:24 PM
 
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According orthodox fundamentalist Christianity, abortion doctors save more souls than most if not all the christian missionaries ...
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