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Old 05-17-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
John Calvin: "There are babies a span long in hell."
The source please. Where did he say this? Atheists LOVE that quote, because it gives them an opportunity to slander a man of God, but I have never seen anyone say where it originated from.

So, do you have a reference?
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,534 posts, read 31,926,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
"There are babies a span long in hell." - this quote is not verifiable - I can't locate a direct source where Calvin said this, although plenty of people claim he did say it. Its difficult to say whether Calvin believed all babies who die as babies are "elect" or not, certainly Calvin would believe any "non-elect" babies that die would be burning in hell.
Well, there you go. Glad you noticed.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:02 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,410,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The source please. Where did he say this? Atheists LOVE that quote, because it gives them an opportunity to slander a man of God, but I have never seen anyone say where it originated from.

So, do you have a reference?
Calvinists believe that the non-elect burn in hell. I have seen a number of Calvinists in various forums that believe babies that die are not necessarily elect. So certainly there is a movement amongst Calvinists that believe babies are in hell. I don't think anyone can say for sure what Calvin himself thought on the election of babies, although if babies can be non-elect, Calvin's own theology would say that they are indeed burning "a span long in hell".

But there is a severe problem if all babies that die are elect -> then should one conclude that we kill all babies to guarantee their salvation? I'm sure most would agree that is a horrid thought.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,251 posts, read 14,130,021 times
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I'm curious to any thoughts on this act of God.

Numbers 26:23-33

23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the congregation, saying, `Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' " 25 Then Moses arose and went to Dathan and Abiram, with the elders of Israel following him, 26 and he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart now from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing that belongs to them, or you will be swept away in all their sin." 27 So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones. 28 Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. 29 "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

So although the little ones were not involved in any of the sins of the adults, God saw fit to include them in the judgment. I don't think God sees children as righteous or innocent.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,534 posts, read 31,926,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I'm curious to any thoughts on this act of God.

Numbers 26:23-33

23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the congregation, saying, `Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' " 25 Then Moses arose and went to Dathan and Abiram, with the elders of Israel following him, 26 and he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart now from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing that belongs to them, or you will be swept away in all their sin." 27 So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones. 28 Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. 29 "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

So although the little ones were not involved in any of the sins of the adults, God saw fit to include them in the judgment. I don't think God sees children as righteous or innocent.

Any thoughts on this?
There is death as a result of Adam's sin, so people of all ages die. God also killed the first borns of Egypt, did he not? But if the ground opens and the babies fall to the good side of Sheol, aka Abraham's bosom, then that would be half way to heaven. When Christ died on the cross he took everyone from Abraham's bosom with him to heaven, so the babies are in heaven now, and the wicked are still in the bad side of Sheol/Hades.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,911,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I'm curious to any thoughts on this act of God.

Numbers 26:23-33

23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the congregation, saying, `Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' " 25 Then Moses arose and went to Dathan and Abiram, with the elders of Israel following him, 26 and he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart now from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing that belongs to them, or you will be swept away in all their sin." 27 So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones. 28 Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. 29 "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

So although the little ones were not involved in any of the sins of the adults, God saw fit to include them in the judgment. I don't think God sees children as righteous or innocent.

Any thoughts on this?
Well, this took place prior to the coming of Christ. All would have gone to Sheol. That was were they would have awaited the resurrection. Sheol was not necessarily a bad state, although it would have been for the wicked. The righteous would have seen it as a place of peace and rest.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,251 posts, read 14,130,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, this took place prior to the coming of Christ. All would have gone to Sheol. That was were they would have awaited the resurrection. Sheol was not necessarily a bad state, although it would have been for the wicked. The righteous would have seen it as a place of peace and rest.
I am referring to the treatment of the "little ones". Why aren't they spared from this judgment?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, this took place prior to the coming of Christ. All would have gone to Sheol. That was were they would have awaited the resurrection. Sheol was not necessarily a bad state, although it would have been for the wicked. The righteous would have seen it as a place of peace and rest.
Hi Katzpur,

You don't have to agree with any of this, of course.

But, I do not believe that there is a conscious place to hang out in the spirit realm after death. It looks to me like the Hebrews thought people, righteous and wicked, were just plain ol' sleeping; Just like Jesus said.

John 11:11: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

John 11:14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.


I think the link below does a great job of helping people understand what the Hebrews thought about death.

All about Sheol and hell
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,911,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I am referring to the treatment of the "little ones". Why aren't they spared from this judgment?
They would be judged worthy of Paradise (the "good part" of Sheol).
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,251 posts, read 14,130,021 times
Reputation: 10122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There is death as a result of Adam's sin, so people of all ages die. God also killed the first borns of Egypt, did he not? But if the ground opens and the babies fall to the good side of Sheol, aka Abraham's bosom, then that would be half way to heaven. When Christ died on the cross he took everyone from Abraham's bosom with him to heaven, so the babies are in heaven now, and the wicked are still in the bad side of Sheol/Hades.
I emboldened the important part above.

Who knows that for sure? Nobody.

What we do know is that they were subject to earthly judgment despite not participating in the actual sin. They were judged by relationship.

Is that correct?
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