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Old 05-17-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
They would be judged worthy of Paradise (the "good part" of Sheol).
Based on what?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:58 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Calvinists believe that the non-elect burn in hell. I have seen a number of Calvinists in various forums that believe babies that die are not necessarily elect. So certainly there is a movement amongst Calvinists that believe babies are in hell. I don't think anyone can say for sure what Calvin himself thought on the election of babies, although if babies can be non-elect, Calvin's own theology would say that they are indeed burning "a span long in hell".

But there is a severe problem if all babies that die are elect -> then should one conclude that we kill all babies to guarantee their salvation? I'm sure most would agree that is a horrid thought.
Calvinists schmalvimists.........that is just crazy to think that any baby is going to be burning in hell. Sheesh. Honestly, how can ANYONE believe like this? And you're right, with that line of thinking then all babies should be murdered to insure their salvation. Isn't that why that crazy woman (can't remember her name now) killed all five of her children by drowning them? Oh the humanity. God please open some eyes to the truth.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I'm curious to any thoughts on this act of God.

Numbers 26:23-33

23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the congregation, saying, `Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' " 25 Then Moses arose and went to Dathan and Abiram, with the elders of Israel following him, 26 and he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart now from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing that belongs to them, or you will be swept away in all their sin." 27 So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones. 28 Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. 29 "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

So although the little ones were not involved in any of the sins of the adults, God saw fit to include them in the judgment. I don't think God sees children as righteous or innocent.

Any thoughts on this?

Korah was known as a warrior and a fighter. He was legendary in Canaan. His whole group was scheming and scamming and causing chaos and confusion.

I believe that in the Old Testament, God (He was dealing with a NATION He had to protect), wiped out many people at a time, even little ones. The groups that He wiped out weren't the nicest people in town, if you know what I mean. Getting rid of EVERYONE would mean that these families with these grudges and war-like attitudes couldn't keep on reproducing and growing larger.

That's my short take on this.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I emboldened the important part above.

Who knows that for sure? Nobody.

What we do know is that they were subject to earthly judgment despite not participating in the actual sin. They were judged by relationship.

Is that correct?
Yes, there were earthly punishments in OT, much like in the case of Egypt, and the flood. God killed David's baby too because of something David did. David knew the baby went to a good place and that him and the baby would be reunited after death.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
They would be judged worthy of Paradise (the "good part" of Sheol).
Yes, indeed, the good side of Sheol weren't all that bad. Good company and lots of R&R.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:14 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,212,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The source please. Where did he say this? Atheists LOVE that quote, because it gives them an opportunity to slander a man of God, but I have never seen anyone say where it originated from.

So, do you have a reference?

I know that Augustine of Hippo, one of the main proponents of ET in the early church taught that babies that die before they are baptized are damned ...

Quote:
AUGUSTINE on UNBAPTIZED INFANTS
“If you wish to be Catholic, do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants who are overtaken by death before they can be baptized are able to come to a forgiveness of original sins" (3) (Augustine, “The Soul and Its Origin, A.D. 419-420)

And again ...

Quote:
On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants
"such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: 'Judgment from one offence to condemnation', and again a little after: 'By the offence of one upon all persons to condemnation"
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Hi Katzpur,

You don't have to agree with any of this, of course.

But, I do not believe that there is a conscious place to hang out in the spirit realm after death. It looks to me like the Hebrews thought people, righteous and wicked, were just plain ol' sleeping; Just like Jesus said.

John 11:11: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

John 11:14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.


I think the link below does a great job of helping people understand what the Hebrews thought about death.

All about Sheol and hell
Hi, herefornow. I looked at your link, but it didn't totally clarify things for me. If you could just explain what you personally believe happens to a person at the time of death, it would make it easier for me to address this issue. Are you saying that you believe the dead are conscious of nothing in the interim between death and the resurrection? My studies have led me to conclude quite the opposite -- that the early Christians did, in fact, believe that the spirits of the dead continued to exist after death and awaited the resurrection in a spirit realm. I have quotes from a number of the early Church fathers to that effect.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Based on what?
For those who died in infancy or early childhood, it would be based upon the fact that they died without sin. (I don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin. I believe that we are born with a propensity or inclination towards sin, but that we become "sinners" only when we are capable of making a conscious decision to act in a manner that is contrary to God's will.) For older children and adults, it would be based on how obedient to God's commandments they had been.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
For those who died in infancy or early childhood, it would be based upon the fact that they died without sin. (I don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin. I believe that we are born with a propensity or inclination towards sin, but that we become "sinners" only when we are capable of making a conscious decision to act in a manner that is contrary to God's will.) For older children and adults, it would be based on how obedient to God's commandments they had been.
If you don't believe in original sin and its effects, then I can understand why you believe that way.

But there is a reason Paul writes the last part of Romans 5 and the middle of 1 Cor. 15. Because Christ came and died to reverse the curse of Adam. Christ came to earth apart from the man/woman relationship in order to be born outside of the Adamic nature in order to survive His earthly existence without sinning.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
If you don't believe in original sin and its effects, then I can understand why you believe that way.

But there is a reason Paul writes the last part of Romans 5 and the middle of 1 Cor. 15. Because Christ came and died to reverse the curse of Adam. Christ came to earth apart from the man/woman relationship in order to be born outside of the Adamic nature in order to survive His earthly existence without sinning.
Well, first of all, I didn't say that I believe that Adam's Fall had "no effect" on us. I do believe we inherited a sinful nature from him, and that's huge. I believe that if we were left on our own and did not have the guidance of the Holy Ghost in our lives, there is not one of us who would not end up a sinner. It's just that if Christ really did "reverse the curse of Adam," why would newborn babies still be being held accountable for it? Why would God punish a newborn baby for a sin someone else committed 6000 years ago and that someone else paid the price for 2000 years ago? It makes no sense whatsoever!

I see Adam as having brought two kinds of death into the world: physical and spiritual, and Christ having overcome them both. Physical death comes to all of us regardless of how we live. Some die as infants and others in their old age, and good behavior has little to do with it. We experience spiritual death when we sin. But if Christ atoned for Adam's sin, we shouldn't still be under that curse. It should be done and forgotten. That's why I believe we will be punished for our own sins, and not for Adam's, and it's why I believe that a baby or a child who is too young to willfully choose to disobey God has no sin. Finally, it's why I believe Christ told us that we had to become like little children in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
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