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Old 05-18-2010, 06:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Ok, I'm glad to know that you do understand the difference between the two, although I must correct you a bit on your definition of what legalism is. Legalism is the idea that you earn your salvation by keeping the law. To think that you must avoid sin to avoid hell isn't legalism, it is plain common sense. Trying to avoid something doesn't mean you want run into it sometimes but at least you are trying to avoid it. If someone is not trying to avoid sin then they are not trying to have a relationship with Christ.


To the contrary. Thinking that you must avoid sin in order to avoid losing your salvation is works. It is the attempt to maintain your salvation by your efforts. In this case by making an effort to avoid sin.

The believer cannot lose his salvation for any reason whatsoever.


Quote:

As to the dying with unconfessed sin? Well ultimately that is between the person and the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is simply a sin that is willfully unconfessed. If the Holy Spirit has convicted a person of a sin in their life that they have refused to confess, well lets just say that I don't want to be that person. If someone took $5 from a classmate in high school, then went on to live a life of crime, but found God in his 40's and lived out the rest of his life serving God, if he has legitimately forgotten about the $5 then I don't see that keeping him out of heaven, but if the Holy Spirit has reminded him of that repeatedly, well...... Like I said ultimately it is between them and the Holy Spirit.
No it is not between the person and the Holy Spirit. The matter was settled at the moment that person believed in Christ for salvation. It is based on the work of Christ on the Cross. All sin has been paid for. God does not judge sin that has already been judged. In other words, the believer can not lose his salvation for committing a sin that Christ already paid for.

The unpardonable sin can only be committed by the unbeliever. It was described in Mark 3:22-30 as the pharisees accusing Christ of perfoming His miracles by means of Satan instead of the Holy Spirit. It was tantamount to rejecting Christ as Savior.

Unbelief in Christ, rejecting Christ as Savior is always unforgivable. That is the issue in the angelic conflict.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 885,359 times
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How is a baby who dies in infancy or before the 'age of accountablility" resurrected? Does he just automatically get a mind to love and obey God? Doesn't that mess with his free will? Same with someone who was mentally unstable/etc.

For that matter how about the person who makes a deathbed confession, or lived only a few 'good' years before death. What about any of us who at one time or another wrestle with sin. How does God change us so that we don't even want to sin again? Even if we agree to be changed, aren't we just agreeing to having no free will after that?

If we aren't changed to the point that there is no rebellious or 'sinful' thought, how is there any guarantee that another rebellion won't occur in 4 million years, give or take a few?

(I don't believe in free will....I believe we certainly have a will and choices but I don't believe that we have any control over what choices we get/have to make nor do we have access to all the information/outcomes and variables involved in each choice.) But I would be very interested in how people resolve this question of HOW we go from imperfect beings before death to perfect upon resurrection with no possibility of sin without losing much of our supposed free will and isn't that then a 'heaven' populated by at least semi robots?
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:55 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,244,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
How is a baby who dies in infancy or before the 'age of accountablility" resurrected? Does he just automatically get a mind to love and obey God? Doesn't that mess with his free will? Same with someone who was mentally unstable/etc.

For that matter how about the person who makes a deathbed confession, or lived only a few 'good' years before death. What about any of us who at one time or another wrestle with sin. How does God change us so that we don't even want to sin again? Even if we agree to be changed, aren't we just agreeing to having no free will after that?

If we aren't changed to the point that there is no rebellious or 'sinful' thought, how is there any guarantee that another rebellion won't occur in 4 million years, give or take a few?

(I don't believe in free will....I believe we certainly have a will and choices but I don't believe that we have any control over what choices we get/have to make nor do we have access to all the information/outcomes and variables involved in each choice.) But I would be very interested in how people resolve this question of HOW we go from imperfect beings before death to perfect upon resurrection with no possibility of sin without losing much of our supposed free will and isn't that then a 'heaven' populated by at least semi robots?
Great questions Wren, i am curious how the "free willers" will answer this as well ...
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Default #3...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It was legalistic people such as yourself who came in behind the Apostle Paul and tried to undo what he had taught. Paul addressed the issue of legalism in the book of Romans. Sin does not cause a believer to lose his salvation. Every single sin that will ever be committed in human history, past, present, and future has already been paid for. God does not judge a second time that which has already been judged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...well...let's just see what Paul ACTUALLY taught in Romans...

*Please note: I will quote a verse, and in between them, I will comment...
Where we left off:

ROMANS 3:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Here, Paul convicts them (his beloved in Rome) even more. They had the "WORDS!"...Words...the oracles of God!...the Jew had great advantages...more knowledge...the greatest advantage was that they had the Holy Scriptures...the promises that told them of the coming Messiah...the Savior.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

But God's promises are made only to (obedient) believers...therefore the unbelief of some cannot make this faithfulness of no effect. He will fulfil his promises to his people, and bring his threatened vengeance upon unbelievers...covenant-breakers<<>>those who do not keep the ten commandments...who live a sinful life...He hates worker's of iniquity. Iniquity is sin...sin is the transgression of the law...the law is the ten commandments...all 10 of them.

************************************************** ****************
CERTAIN PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE SPECIAL NOTE OF THIS VERSE:

5 But if our (g) unrighteousness commend (praise) the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak (h) as a man)


(g) Treachery, and all the fruits of it. (h) Therefore I do not speak these words of my own accord, as though this is what I thought, but this is the talk of man's wisdom, which is not subject to the will of God.

commend tr.v. 1. To represent as worthy, qualified, or desirable; recommend. 2. To express approval of; praise. See Synonyms at praise.

Unbelieving hearts are more than happy to engage in an argument about the fairness of God's actions/just rewards/wrath toward a wilful sinner... and will jump at the occasion to condemn HIM Who is most just, (see Job 34:17: Shall even he (the sinner) that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn HIM WHO IS MOST JUST?) "...I speak as a man...", like a vain, foolish, proud, ignorant creature!!!

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

How could anyone imagine such a perverted thing? ANY suggestions what-so-ever, that would reflect dishonour upon a just and holy God are shocking...in the least!...GOD FORBID!!! If He were not infinitely JUST and RIGHTEOUS, He would be unfit to judge the world!

If any sin, their condemnation is just.

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

"THIS IS BLASPHEMY!" Paul screams! "If sins turn out to the glory of God, then they should not even be punished!..."...but we should just give ourselves over to a life FILLED with sin...BLASPHEMY!" Paul pronounces that God's punishment is just and fair!...and calls anyone who questions the actions of God toward a sinner, a BLASPHEMER!

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

"...Let us do evil, that good may come...?" ABSURD!!! BLASPHEMER!!! All WHO TEACH THIS DOCTRINE ARE JUSTLY CONDEMNED!!!

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Paul is telling the Jews that they are no better then the Gentiles...all were sinners before God...the Jews by transgressing the law...and the Gentiles, by transgressing the law of nature!

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is how God sees man when He looks down at us from heaven...but not what He makes them by His grace...there is none righteous...and the details of their unrighteousness follows...in Romans 3:11,12; their discourse, Romans 3:13,14; and their actions, Romans 3:16-18

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it shall to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The law of Moses...NOT the Ten Commandments.

"The law of Moses" aka "The Book of the law"...ADDED to the Ten Commandments...Galatians 3:19: Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED [JESUS!] SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator [Moses].

What law was it that was given by Moses?...2 Chronicles 34:14: And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a "book" of the law of the LORD [given] by Moses. It was the Book of the law, NOT the Ten Commandments...it was the "added" law.

The Book of the law!..the law of Moses!...the ceremonial law! was observed by DOING DEEDS (the blood of bulls and goats<<<which cannot take away sin!)!!! THESE ARE the "works" or the "deeds" spoken of here!...and a man is not justified by doing these deeds!...they ARE JUSTIFIED by FAITH!...these laws left no room for repentance...these WORKS gave them room to BOAST!!!

...to be continued.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-18-2010 at 10:17 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,405,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Hi, herefornow. I looked at your link, but it didn't totally clarify things for me. If you could just explain what you personally believe happens to a person at the time of death, it would make it easier for me to address this issue. Are you saying that you believe the dead are conscious of nothing in the interim between death and the resurrection? My studies have led me to conclude quite the opposite -- that the early Christians did, in fact, believe that the spirits of the dead continued to exist after death and awaited the resurrection in a spirit realm. I have quotes from a number of the early Church fathers to that effect.

Hi katzpur,

This won't be one of my typical long replies as I am out on the truck with my husband this week. I can get into more detail and maybe explain myself better when I get back home, as I am typing this on my phone. (I was wondering if you had a chance to read my explanation on the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in the "Mistranslations" thread, yet)

I realize that not a whole lot of people agree with me about what happens to
you when you die, and I might be thinking a little off the deep end, but here goes:

I believe when you die, you die. Your body goes into the ground, your spirit goes back to God (that life-giving energy that every living thing has) and your thoughts (mind, soul) are put on hold, like backup storage. There are PLENTY
of verses in the Old AND New Testament to back this up, in my opinion.

But, at the same time, you would not know you died. Once you "fell asleep," it
would be kind of like when you fall asleep and then wake up in the morning, or like somebody that goes into a coma and wakes up 5 years later; they don't*know any time has passed. So, let's say you die today, and God "woke you up," or rebooted you 1,000 years later. You wouldn't know any time had passed, except things would be VERY different, of course.

I believe that paganism has left a DEEP mark on people around the world. I dont know HOW early we are talking about, when speaking of the fathers, but quite a few of them thought a LOT of strange things that many people today
no longer agree with. I also believe that when the disciples warned of the apostasy that was creeping into the church at THAT TIME, they were not warning others for no good reason.

When Constantine and Augustine and a whole lot of other VERY "interesting" men got hold of those scriptures, with their beastly kinds of attitudes, I think
some strange thoughts started fouling up the GOOD NEWS!!

And, furthermore, I don't believe there is ANY scripture to back them up. *I guess I will have to get into more detail later, although I think many people on these threads have done a pretty good job at explaining this. *(For instance, the Catholic church did a pretty good job of turning the pagans into Christians.
*What they taught wasn't much different than what the pagans already believed.)

What I am trying to do is to go even FURTHER back; find out what reference point the Jews were hearing Jesus from. *And, I want to know how much paganism they might have been infested with. *(The DELUSION covers the ENTIRE world.)

( I guess I am getting better at typing on my phone)

Last edited by herefornow; 05-18-2010 at 11:17 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:23 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 8,831,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
How is a baby who dies in infancy or before the 'age of accountablility" resurrected? Does he just automatically get a mind to love and obey God? Doesn't that mess with his free will? Same with someone who was mentally unstable/etc.

For that matter how about the person who makes a deathbed confession, or lived only a few 'good' years before death. What about any of us who at one time or another wrestle with sin. How does God change us so that we don't even want to sin again? Even if we agree to be changed, aren't we just agreeing to having no free will after that?

If we aren't changed to the point that there is no rebellious or 'sinful' thought, how is there any guarantee that another rebellion won't occur in 4 million years, give or take a few?

(I don't believe in free will....I believe we certainly have a will and choices but I don't believe that we have any control over what choices we get/have to make nor do we have access to all the information/outcomes and variables involved in each choice.) But I would be very interested in how people resolve this question of HOW we go from imperfect beings before death to perfect upon resurrection with no possibility of sin without losing much of our supposed free will and isn't that then a 'heaven' populated by at least semi robots?
for the first question..the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So children, believers, and the mentality unstable are with Jesus the minute..no the second they depart this life.

okay the change part..I have sinful and rebellious thoughts..but when I get them I turn them over to God..the Bible says hold every thought captive..do I sin? sure I can sin all i want..the problem is i dont want to sin..but i do..and when i do it comes in between my relationship with God, and I hate it..but he is faithful and just to forgive our sins if we confess them to him..yes of course he already knows, but it sure is good to get it off our chest. I cant answer what heaven will be like..but I do know that Jesus died for mine sins and yours..and he is able to wash all of them away with the blood he shed for us at Calvary. I beleive in heaven there will be no sin because there will be no devil...no sinful fallen state of the world..just us and Christ and we will get to be with him forever..and ever. Free will in heaven with Christ around? I think theres gonna be alot of fallen to our knees and crying holy holy holy..and thats just the first three trillion years.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,149,989 times
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Hi everyone,
Got another question: "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." Matt. 10:42.

So if an "unbeliever" gives someone a drink of water (or better) then dies, does he get a reward to take with him to hell? When are rewards given? By whom? What types of rewards are there?

Any help here much appreciated..!
Blessings,
Brian
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,671,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Man is born into the world already under eternal condemnation.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death...

Spiritual death... loss of relationship with God; separation from God.


Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.


Salvation is freely offered to all...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:51 ''I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.''


Salvation is a free gift...

Romans 6:23b ...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10 ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.


The free gift of salvation which is offered must be received...

John 1:11 He came to His own (National Israel), and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.


Jesus rebuked those who rejected His offer of salvation...

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.


The consequences for rejecting God's free offer of salvation is death. Eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.

John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

John 3:36 ''He who believes the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


The Invitation to Come to Christ for salvation...

Isaiah 55:1

1) HO, every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat.
Come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without cost.

6) Seek the LORD while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.


John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, ''It is done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Revelation 22:17b ...And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
It is a FREE GIFT. Problem is that the anti-universalist crowd seems to say its free while suggesting that you have to pass a TEST (Freewill) to get it - which obviously would make it NOT free.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:06 AM
 
20,484 posts, read 15,854,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It is a FREE GIFT. Problem is that the anti-universalist crowd seems to say its free while suggesting that you have to pass a TEST (Freewill) to get it - which obviously would make it NOT free.
That is typically the manner in which those who espouse Universalism twist words and concepts. There is no suggestion of any tests which require passing.


To the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that can be received or rejected. Having to want the gift of salvation and receive it through faith in Christ makes it no less free.

First, salvation indeed is a free gift...

Romans 6:23b ...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


But the gift of salvation must be asked for, as Jesus Himself made clear...

John 4:10 ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.


Salvation is offered to all...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:51 ''I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever, and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.


The free gift of salvation can be rejected...

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.


Here is the issue and here is the contrast...

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

It is a foolish stubbornness that simply refuses to acknowledge the clear statements and declaration of the word of God that leave no doubt whatsoever as to the need to place your faith in Christ in order to be saved.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:09 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,244,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
How is a baby who dies in infancy or before the 'age of accountablility" resurrected? Does he just automatically get a mind to love and obey God? Doesn't that mess with his free will? Same with someone who was mentally unstable/etc.

For that matter how about the person who makes a deathbed confession, or lived only a few 'good' years before death. What about any of us who at one time or another wrestle with sin. How does God change us so that we don't even want to sin again? Even if we agree to be changed, aren't we just agreeing to having no free will after that?

If we aren't changed to the point that there is no rebellious or 'sinful' thought, how is there any guarantee that another rebellion won't occur in 4 million years, give or take a few?

(I don't believe in free will....I believe we certainly have a will and choices but I don't believe that we have any control over what choices we get/have to make nor do we have access to all the information/outcomes and variables involved in each choice.) But I would be very interested in how people resolve this question of HOW we go from imperfect beings before death to perfect upon resurrection with no possibility of sin without losing much of our supposed free will and isn't that then a 'heaven' populated by at least semi robots?

Ah Wren ... I knew that they would pass right over your questions ...
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