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Old 05-19-2010, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That is typically the manner in which those who espouse Universalism twist words and concepts. There is no suggestion of any tests which require passing.


To the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that can be received or rejected. Having to want the gift of salvation and receive it through faith in Christ makes it no less free.

First, salvation indeed is a free gift...

Romans 6:23b ...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


But the gift of salvation must be asked for, as Jesus Himself made clear...

John 4:10 ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.


Salvation is offered to all...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:51 ''I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever, and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.


The free gift of salvation can be rejected...

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.


Here is the issue and here is the contrast...

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

It is a foolish stubbornness that simply refuses to acknowledge the clear statements and declaration of the word of God that leave no doubt whatsoever as to the need to place your faith in Christ in order to be saved.
You admit that faith has no merit... yet you seem to say that faith is the 'get out of hell free' card! Like there is a puzzle and the only ones who go to heaven are the ones that have the last piece..faith...

If Jesus saved all men... restored them that is.. then why is there a need for them to have faith. I have no real faith because faith is hope for what is unseen. I have seen the good news therefore how can I still need or have faith in it?

Basically I see that you are saying that those who have faith then become saved are still having faith... when it is the faithless that Jesus came to save. Once you believe in your salvation isn't it silly to consider yourself in need of salvation?

I like how Christ put it: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." and "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

How then can we say that Christ came to call the righteous or that one must be faithful to obtain salvation?

God wants all men to be saved..."God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"

"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?"

So that GOD is always faithful and will do what he wills... and he WILLS or WANTS all men who are faithless to be saved!

I don't see how you can logically think otherwise. Faith is not a commodity used to pay for ones election to salvation... IMO
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:18 PM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,705,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You admit that faith has no merit... yet you seem to say that faith is the 'get out of hell free' card! Like there is a puzzle and the only ones who go to heaven are the ones that have the last piece..faith...
Admit????? What's to admit? Did I commit a crime? Do something I shouldn't have? It's not a matter of admitting anything.


Quote:
If Jesus saved all men... restored them that is.. then why is there a need for them to have faith. I have no real faith because faith is hope for what is unseen. I have seen the good news therefore how can I still need or have faith in it?

Basically I see that you are saying that those who have faith then become saved are still having faith... when it is the faithless that Jesus came to save. Once you believe in your salvation isn't it silly to consider yourself in need of salvation?

I like how Christ put it: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." and "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

How then can we say that Christ came to call the righteous or that one must be faithful to obtain salvation?

God wants all men to be saved..."God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"

"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?"

So that GOD is always faithful and will do what he wills... and he WILLS or WANTS all men who are faithless to be saved!

I don't see how you can logically think otherwise. Faith is not a commodity used to pay for ones election to salvation... IMO
[quote=Mike555;14241850]That is typically the manner in which those who espouse Universalism twist words and concepts. There is no suggestion of any tests which require passing.


To the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that can be received or rejected. Having to want the gift of salvation and receive it through faith in Christ makes it no less free.

First, salvation indeed is a free gift...

Romans 6:23b ...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


But the gift of salvation must be asked for, as Jesus Himself made clear...

John 4:10 ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.


Salvation is offered to all...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:51 ''I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever, and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.


The free gift of salvation can be rejected...

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.


Here is the issue and here is the contrast...

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

It is a foolish stubbornness that simply refuses to acknowledge the clear statements and declaration of the word of God that leave no doubt whatsoever as to the need to place your faith in Christ in order to be saved.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,298 posts, read 20,959,818 times
Reputation: 9992
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Hi katzpur,

This won't be one of my typical long replies as I am out on the truck with my husband this week. I can get into more detail and maybe explain myself better when I get back home, as I am typing this on my phone. (I was wondering if you had a chance to read my explanation on the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in the "Mistranslations" thread, yet)
Yes, I have read it, and you made some good points. I've been really busy and haven't had time to comment on it yet. Hopefully, I'll be able to find it again! (Half the time, I can't remember what thread certain posts were on.)

Quote:
I realize that not a whole lot of people agree with me about what happens to
you when you die, and I might be thinking a little off the deep end, but here goes:

I believe when you die, you die. Your body goes into the ground, your spirit goes back to God (that life-giving energy that every living thing has) and your thoughts (mind, soul) are put on hold, like backup storage. There are PLENTY
of verses in the Old AND New Testament to back this up, in my opinion.

But, at the same time, you would not know you died. Once you "fell asleep," it
would be kind of like when you fall asleep and then wake up in the morning, or like somebody that goes into a coma and wakes up 5 years later; they don't*know any time has passed. So, let's say you die today, and God "woke you up," or rebooted you 1,000 years later. You wouldn't know any time had passed, except things would be VERY different, of course.
I don't know that that's any more off the deep end than my belief, although it's fairly different from my belief. So am I understanding correctly that you believe that if you were to lose a relative, for instance, that person's spirit would immediately return to God's presence but he or she would be unaware of everything until he was resurrected?

Quote:
I believe that paganism has left a DEEP mark on people around the world. I dont know HOW early we are talking about, when speaking of the fathers, but quite a few of them thought a LOT of strange things that many people today
no longer agree with. I also believe that when the disciples warned of the apostasy that was creeping into the church at THAT TIME, they were not warning others for no good reason.

When Constantine and Augustine and a whole lot of other VERY "interesting" men got hold of those scriptures, with their beastly kinds of attitudes, I think
some strange thoughts started fouling up the GOOD NEWS!!

And, furthermore, I don't believe there is ANY scripture to back them up. *I guess I will have to get into more detail later, although I think many people on these threads have done a pretty good job at explaining this. *(For instance, the Catholic church did a pretty good job of turning the pagans into Christians.
*What they taught wasn't much different than what the pagans already believed.)

What I am trying to do is to go even FURTHER back; find out what reference point the Jews were hearing Jesus from. *And, I want to know how much paganism they might have been infested with. *(The DELUSION covers the ENTIRE world.)
I totally agree with you on this. I believe the apostasy predicted by Paul had definitely started to take place shortly after Christ's death and was probably 100% complete by the end of the second century at the very latest.
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:55 AM
 
701 posts, read 659,512 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Thinking that you must avoid sin in order to avoid losing your salvation is works. It is the attempt to maintain your salvation by your efforts. In this case by making an effort to avoid sin.

The believer cannot lose his salvation for any reason whatsoever.




No it is not between the person and the Holy Spirit. The matter was settled at the moment that person believed in Christ for salvation. It is based on the work of Christ on the Cross. All sin has been paid for. God does not judge sin that has already been judged. In other words, the believer can not lose his salvation for committing a sin that Christ already paid for.

The unpardonable sin can only be committed by the unbeliever. It was described in Mark 3:22-30 as the pharisees accusing Christ of perfoming His miracles by means of Satan instead of the Holy Spirit. It was tantamount to rejecting Christ as Savior.

Unbelief in Christ, rejecting Christ as Savior is always unforgivable. That is the issue in the angelic conflict.

Mike, sorry you missed my point about the common sense remark. I never said that it was common sense, that someone must avoid sin to earn their salvation. Every Christian I know, understands that sin is bad, most common sense people try to avoid things that are bad. That is all I was referring to. If you are not making an effort to avoid sin, then are you making an effort to find sin? Scripture tells me that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Does that mean that I'm earning my salvation? No. At what point in time does God ever take away our freedom? We are always free to choose. Just because I accept Christ at one point in my life does not mean that I'm forgiven for every sin I will commit, it just means that I am forgiven for every sin I have committed. Doesn't scripture make it clear that repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sins? How can Christ forgive me for sins I have not repented of?

What was settled at Calvary was the availability of salvation for all. You stated that the matter was settled at the moment that person believed in Christ for salvation, but that is not true assuming the person continued to live after accepting Christ's salvation. The issue wasn't settled because that person still has freedom of choice, and Christ needs to be a daily choice, not just a once in a lifetime choice. Why do you think the Devil is so adamant about tempting Christians? He knows scripture better than any human being alive today, and he knows that just because you accepted Christ's gift of salvation, doesn't mean that you cannot be lost. Why would he bother with you if you were "saved"? Salvation is a process, not a single moment in time. To say that you have a part to play in that process is not works/righteousness in the slightest. Works/righteousness is the idea that you become righteous by your own actions, and that is not what I'm saying at all. Christ died so that whoever believes in Him can have everlasting life. Christ's part = Calvary. Our part = believing in Him. It is a cooperative process, He cannot save those that do not want salvation, otherwise the text would have read 'Christ died so that everyone would be saved regardless of whether or not they believed in Him'. Salvation is conditional on our acceptance of it. What does it mean to accept it and "believe" in Him? Is it just a statement, all that it means? If you say that you believe you can fly but won't jump off a building, do you really believe you can fly? If you say you believe in Christ and accept His gift of salvation, but refuse to repent of sin in your life, do you really believe? Have you really accepted His gift? If you do repent and truly accept His gift of salvation, can you loose that gift or return it? Sure, why couldn't you? At what point does Christ ever take away our freedom of choice? Imagine a guy who courts and then marries the woman that he loves, but as soon as she says I do he forbids her from ever leaving him. Now take another guy in the same situation but upon exchanging "Ido's" she is free to go if she chooses. 20 years down the road both wives are still married to each guy but, which one do you think honestly loves her husband? The one who is there by choice. True Christianity is not about a religion, it is about a relationship. Christ wants to have a relationship with us and that is always a cooperative two way street. We have to decide that we are going to take the time to invest in that relationship by spending time in God's word and getting to know Him. We certainly can't do it on our own, but we certainly have a part to play. God is not going to force us to spend time with Him, and build the relationship. He patiently stands at the door and knocks, but we have to open the door and let Him in, and once he is in we have to spend time with Him on a regular basis to build that relationship. The more time we spend the stronger the relationship gets and the more we learn to rely on Him. I have seen people abandoned some very deep and meaningful relationships for stupid reasons. Why is our relationship with Christ any different? I know some people that have had strong relationships with Christ, but somewhere in life they decided to abandon the relationship, and now they are an atheist. Is it too late for them? No, not at all, as long as they have breath in their body they have the opportunity to make the choice to rekindle the relationship they walked away from, Christ is always there waiting with outstretched arms.
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Old 05-22-2010, 05:37 AM
 
701 posts, read 659,512 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
How is a baby who dies in infancy or before the 'age of accountablility" resurrected? Does he just automatically get a mind to love and obey God? Doesn't that mess with his free will? Same with someone who was mentally unstable/etc.
Hi Scarlet, I must honestly say that I don't know how God will deal with these situations but, I have the utmost faith that however He deals with each case, His decisions will be just and fair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
For that matter how about the person who makes a deathbed confession, or lived only a few 'good' years before death. What about any of us who at one time or another wrestle with sin. How does God change us so that we don't even want to sin again?

The reason sin will never rear its ugly head again is not because we are no longer capable of it, but because we will have seen the effects of rebellion against God and will want no part of it. Also, when we wrestle with sin we are wrestling with the Devil, and he will ultimately be destroyed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Even if we agree to be changed, aren't we just agreeing to having no free will after that?

If we aren't changed to the point that there is no rebellious or 'sinful' thought, how is there any guarantee that another rebellion won't occur in 4 million years, give or take a few?

(I don't believe in free will....I believe we certainly have a will and choices but I don't believe that we have any control over what choices we get/have to make nor do we have access to all the information/outcomes and variables involved in each choice.) But I would be very interested in how people resolve this question of HOW we go from imperfect beings before death to perfect upon resurrection with no possibility of sin without losing much of our supposed free will and isn't that then a 'heaven' populated by at least semi robots?
Free will is simply the freedom to choose, it is not the freedom to create the menu. People seem to think that they are not free to choose because they can't be the ones to dictate what the options are.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:22 AM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,705,873 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Mike, sorry you missed my point about the common sense remark. I never said that it was common sense, that someone must avoid sin to earn their salvation. Every Christian I know, understands that sin is bad, most common sense people try to avoid things that are bad. That is all I was referring to. If you are not making an effort to avoid sin, then are you making an effort to find sin? Scripture tells me that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Does that mean that I'm earning my salvation? No. At what point in time does God ever take away our freedom? We are always free to choose. Just because I accept Christ at one point in my life does not mean that I'm forgiven for every sin I will commit, it just means that I am forgiven for every sin I have committed. Doesn't scripture make it clear that repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sins? How can Christ forgive me for sins I have not repented of?

What was settled at Calvary was the availability of salvation for all. You stated that the matter was settled at the moment that person believed in Christ for salvation, but that is not true assuming the person continued to live after accepting Christ's salvation. The issue wasn't settled because that person still has freedom of choice, and Christ needs to be a daily choice, not just a once in a lifetime choice. Why do you think the Devil is so adamant about tempting Christians? He knows scripture better than any human being alive today, and he knows that just because you accepted Christ's gift of salvation, doesn't mean that you cannot be lost. Why would he bother with you if you were "saved"? Salvation is a process, not a single moment in time. To say that you have a part to play in that process is not works/righteousness in the slightest. Works/righteousness is the idea that you become righteous by your own actions, and that is not what I'm saying at all. Christ died so that whoever believes in Him can have everlasting life. Christ's part = Calvary. Our part = believing in Him. It is a cooperative process, He cannot save those that do not want salvation, otherwise the text would have read 'Christ died so that everyone would be saved regardless of whether or not they believed in Him'. Salvation is conditional on our acceptance of it. What does it mean to accept it and "believe" in Him? Is it just a statement, all that it means? If you say that you believe you can fly but won't jump off a building, do you really believe you can fly? If you say you believe in Christ and accept His gift of salvation, but refuse to repent of sin in your life, do you really believe? Have you really accepted His gift? If you do repent and truly accept His gift of salvation, can you loose that gift or return it? Sure, why couldn't you? At what point does Christ ever take away our freedom of choice? Imagine a guy who courts and then marries the woman that he loves, but as soon as she says I do he forbids her from ever leaving him. Now take another guy in the same situation but upon exchanging "Ido's" she is free to go if she chooses. 20 years down the road both wives are still married to each guy but, which one do you think honestly loves her husband? The one who is there by choice. True Christianity is not about a religion, it is about a relationship. Christ wants to have a relationship with us and that is always a cooperative two way street. We have to decide that we are going to take the time to invest in that relationship by spending time in God's word and getting to know Him. We certainly can't do it on our own, but we certainly have a part to play. God is not going to force us to spend time with Him, and build the relationship. He patiently stands at the door and knocks, but we have to open the door and let Him in, and once he is in we have to spend time with Him on a regular basis to build that relationship. The more time we spend the stronger the relationship gets and the more we learn to rely on Him. I have seen people abandoned some very deep and meaningful relationships for stupid reasons. Why is our relationship with Christ any different? I know some people that have had strong relationships with Christ, but somewhere in life they decided to abandon the relationship, and now they are an atheist. Is it too late for them? No, not at all, as long as they have breath in their body they have the opportunity to make the choice to rekindle the relationship they walked away from, Christ is always there waiting with outstretched arms.
Eternal salvation can not be lost for any reason. The issue with regard to salvation is settled at the moment of faith in Christ. Period. The spiritual life after salvation is an entirely different issue. See following thread, the first post.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ly-secure.html
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:10 PM
 
701 posts, read 659,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Eternal salvation can not be lost for any reason. The issue with regard to salvation is settled at the moment of faith in Christ. Period. The spiritual life after salvation is an entirely different issue. See following thread, the first post.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ly-secure.html
So, if a "saved" person murders someone, and does not confess their sin, they are still saved?
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:56 PM
 
701 posts, read 659,512 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post


John 3:36 ''He who believes the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Mike, in your OP you equate belief with obedience, which is so very true, yet what has ever given you the impression that obedience is a singular moment in someones life? As long as we live we can choose to obey or disobey. Our "belief" in Christ is not based on a single moment in our life, it is based on our entire life. Just look at Lucifer, he at one point in his life had complete faith and trust in God, yet he chose to throw that away. Judas is another example of one who believed yet in the end was lost because he rejected Christ. God never takes away our power to choose. Believing in Christ is a choice we need to make each and every day, not just once in our life.
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:02 PM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,705,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
So, if a "saved" person murders someone, and does not confess their sin, they are still saved?
Yes. The sin was already paid for by Christ. The believer who murders someone will be disciplined in time as was king David, and even though he acknowledges the sin, he will likely face divine discipline in time, as well as the civil penalties of the country he lives in, but he will not lose his salvation.

You must come to an understanding of positional sanctification, among other doctrines, to understand why it is absolutely impossible for a believer to lose his eternal relationship with God. A believers position in Christ is unaffected by anything that he can do.
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
2 posts, read 1,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
No
There is such a thing called, "The age of accountability." If there is a child that has reached adult thought and process, and can determine right from wrong, good from evil, that child will be held accountable. Conversely, if a person has not, or cannot differentiate right/wrong, goo/evil, it is my Biblical understanding that they are covered by Christ's blood.
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