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Old 05-16-2010, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

It may make sense to you one day. Keep studying.
I HAVE been studying, and I will continue studying until the day I die, as we ALL should.

Please tell me what is wrong with post #16; specifically, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th paragraphs.
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Preteristvision - Encyclopedia - H

Hell (a.k.a. Lake of Fire, Gehenna)

The New Testament presentation of "hell" derives from NT passages with the phrase "gehenna of fire," or "lake of fire." For example:

"Be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna [hell]." (Matthew 10:28 - Young's Literal Translation)

"Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna [hell]" (Luke 12:5 - Young's Literal Translation)

"If thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire [hell]--where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. (Mark 9:43-48 - Young's Liiteral Translation)

I saw the dead, great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds...And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12,15))

In Mt 10:28 and Luke 12:5, we see that none were to fear mere physical death, such as martyrdom or the Roman slaughter of AD 70; rather they were to fear what God could do to them after physical death, in the gehenna of the afterlife: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]." We see God afflicts the departed soul with gehenna--something no mere mortal could do by killing the body alone. The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.

Such warning of hell is seen in other NT verses. In Mk 9:42, the fate of being killed is said to be better than the fate awaiting false teachers. A fate worse than being merely physically killed can only speak of a worse punishment post-mortem. And in Mk 9:43-48, cited above, the sinner is told to fear being cast into gehenna the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (emphasis is on the ongoing nature of their punishment).

In Luke 16:22-28, we see the Old Testament Hadean scenario as it was known in the time of Jesus--i.e., a post-mortem probationary state wherein some wicked ones were experiencing suffering. Christ's description fully matches Josephus' discourse on hades, wherein the Lake of Fire destiny of the wicked is claimed to be even worse than that experienced in Hades.

In Mt 25:41, the wicked are sent into "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The phrase "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and angels" cannot mean the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem at AD 70, but must speak of a punishment of the non-corporeal realm (for evil angels cannot have been dumped into the Valley of Hinnom by the Romans at AD 70). The everlasting fire prepared for the fallen angels and the devil (Mt 25:41) was likewise the destination for wicked men (Mt 25:41). In 2 Peter 2:4,9, we get a glimpse of the punishment of the wicked angels. Again, punishment of angels cannot speak of the slaughter and disposal of people in the refuse heap of South Jerusalem at AD 70--rather, it speaks of punishments in the non-corporeal realm. Importantly, the fate of the wicked angels is also the fate of wicked men (Matt 25:41), and Jude 1:22-23 instructs that preaching the gospel to men for salvation equates to saving them from "fire."

Finally, in Rev 11:18 and Rev 20:15-18, the judgment of dead ones is mentioned, which unquestionably speaks of post mortem judgment. This judgment of the dead is actually detailed in Rev 20:15-18, where the dead are thrown into the lake of fire (i.e, post-mortem people are thrown into the gehenna of fire). This cannot be the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem with the Romans, but rather is the traditional hell designated for the wicked in the afterlife. Since the passage speaks of dead individuals sent to the gehenna of fire, it cannot be threatening physical death by the Romans at AD 70 in the Valley of Hinnom. These dead people are already removed from the land of the living on earth.


Please don't let this be your fate.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I always thought you were a closet roman catholic Sciotamicks ...
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw1776 View Post
i always thought you were a closet roman catholic sciotamicks ...
rotfl
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Old 07-03-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Sciotamicks, in post #224 in the thread, "One "extra" reason why I believe in the reconciliation of all souls to God," you said, "full preterism eliminates universalism."

Please tell me once more (you never really did) how preterism can get away with twisting Jesus' OWN WORDS on Sodom having a better time at judgment than Capernaum?

I don't know HOW in the world preterists can ignore this simple verse. They say it is SPIRITUAL Sodom (Jerusalem) that will be restored, but that CANNOT be! And you know why.

I was a partial preterist, and still am. Putting the Spirit in a man-made box is not wise. Not at all.
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Old 07-03-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

Please tell me once more (you never really did) how preterism can get away with twisting Jesus' OWN WORDS on Sodom having a better time at judgment than Capernaum?
First of all, Preterist do not twists Jesus' words. It is UR that does.
Now to address your question. Christ utilized prophetic fulfillment to confirm Himself to John (Isaiah 25:4,8; 26:18,19; 29:19; 35:5,6; 40:19; 41:27; 42:7,16; 52:7; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 31:8; Hosea 13:14). It is when Christ begins narrating the ministry and character of John that he conjoins the judgment of God:

Matthew 11:7-27 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. 20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom , it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Christ, pointedly angered at the fraud and hypocrisy of the Jewish nation (both for their rejection of Him and John the Baptist), began to condemn the sinfulness of Israel and then spoke of the judgment that would come upon that generation. Sodom was destroyed in an instant. Jerusalem was seiged for quite a few years. Read the Wars of The Jews, and you can get a first hand glimpse of this time. The war began in 66 AD. Ended in 70 AD when the temple fell and the rest of Jerusalem were enslaved.

Quote:
I don't know HOW in the world preterists can ignore this simple verse. They say it is SPIRITUAL Sodom (Jerusalem) that will be restored, but that CANNOT be! And you know why.
Why? Ezekiel is clear about this. So is Hosea, Jerimiah, Zechariah and so is John and Jesus. Are you willing to contradict them?

Ezekiel 16:1-14 The Lord's Loving kindnesses to Jerusalem
Ezekiel 16:15-34 Unfaithful Jerusalem's Harlotry
Ezekiel 16:35-50 God's Judgment on Jerusalem
Ezekiel 16:51-63 Sodom & Samaria Will be Restored (53-58)
Jerusalem Will Be Ashamed (53-58)
Covenant that Lasts Forever (59-63)

Partial Preterists fail as well, as you do.
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Old 07-03-2010, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
First of all, Preterist do not twists Jesus' words. It is UR that does.
Now to address your question. Christ utilized prophetic fulfillment to confirm Himself to John (Isaiah 25:4,8; 26:18,19; 29:19; 35:5,6; 40:19; 41:27; 42:7,16; 52:7; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 31:8; Hosea 13:14). It is when Christ begins narrating the ministry and character of John that he conjoins the judgment of God:

Matthew 11:7-27 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. 20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom , it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Christ, pointedly angered at the fraud and hypocrisy of the Jewish nation (both for their rejection of Him and John the Baptist), began to condemn the sinfulness of Israel and then spoke of the judgment that would come upon that generation. Sodom was destroyed in an instant. Jerusalem was seiged for quite a few years. Read the Wars of The Jews, and you can get a first hand glimpse of this time. The war began in 66 AD. Ended in 70 AD when the temple fell and the rest of Jerusalem were enslaved.
I believe that physical judgment came upon THAT GENERATION, also. That is not my point here.

In Matthew 11:23,24, Jesus could not have been talking about spiritual Sodom. Spiritual Sodom was still standing.

When Jesus was speaking to Capernaum, he said Sodom would still be standing if it had seen (past tense) the miracles that he performed in Capernaum. If he had been talking about Spiritual Sodom (Jerusalem) it would not have made sense, as Jerusalem was still standing and had seen miracles. He HAD to be talking about physical Sodom, the one that got torched.

it (SODOM) would have (PAST TENSE) remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be (FUTURE TENSE) more tolerable for the land of Sodom



Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Why? Ezekiel is clear about this. So is Hosea, Jerimiah, Zechariah and so is John and Jesus. Are you willing to contradict them?

Ezekiel 16:1-14 The Lord's Loving kindnesses to Jerusalem
Ezekiel 16:15-34 Unfaithful Jerusalem's Harlotry
Ezekiel 16:35-50 God's Judgment on Jerusalem
Ezekiel 16:51-63 Sodom & Samaria Will be Restored (53-58)
Jerusalem Will Be Ashamed (53-58)
Covenant that Lasts Forever (59-63)

Partial Preterists fail as well, as you do.
YES, Spiritual Sodom (Jerusalem) will be restored. And I believe the physical inhabitants of physical Sodom will be restored as well. URs use Ezekiel 16:51-63, also. See my explanation above.
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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herefornow,

Are you familiar with the symbolic type shadow application here...that's all it is...you are overdoing it. The physical people of Sodom are finished. Their behaviour is symbolized in Israel of time of Judges to the first century. They are spritual Sodom. They will and had experience(d) a great tribulation, none that they have ever seen since the beginning of time - Josephus War of the Jews. They were restored under an everlasting COVENANT. Israel, Israel, Israel.

Not everyone.

Physical Sodom, if they saw the miracles that Christ had performed in Capernum, would still be standing, but Capernum (Physical) was to see worse because they denied the miracles. This is hypothetical and allegorical language intertwined. Basic grammar with theological overtones. Made sense to them, makes sense to me.

Physical Sodom wasn't standing then as a physical city. But their sprituality was rampart in Capernum, Jerusalem, and Israel as a whole.
Typology here...very very basic stuff. Physical/Spritual.

The prophets of the OT explained these things in the way they knew how to, even if they didn't understand them themselves, as you do now. However, herefornow, they did know that it would be restored, from spirit in spirit, revealed when Christ came and uttered...the kingdom is neither here nor there, but is within you. How do you think Isaiah felt when he saw the vision of a lamb and wolf lying down together...it must have freaked him out...but he wrote it down anyway..clueless.....and it was later realized in Jew and Gentile grafting into Israel under Christ...clean and unclean animals with a little child leading them.......easy to decipher when you are familliar with the themes. UR does a great job of defamilliarizing themselves with the themes, and applies them in ways nowhere evident within one word of the Holy Writ.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-03-2010 at 06:32 PM..
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

Are you familiar with the symbolic type shadow application here...that's all it is...you are overdoing it. The physical people of Sodom are finished. Their behaviour is symbolized in Israel of time of Judges to the first century. They are spritual Sodom. They will and had experience(d) a great tribulation, none that they have ever since since the beginning of time - Josephus War of the Jews. They were restored under an everlasting COVENANT. Israel, Israel, Israel.

Not everyone.

Sodom, if they saw the miracles that Christ had performed in Capernum, would still be standing, but Capernum was to see worse because they denied the miracles. This is hypothetical and allegorical language intertwined. Basic grammar with theological overtones. Made sense to them, makes sense to me.

Sodom wasn't standing then as a physical city. But their sprituality was rampart in Capernum, Jerusalem, and Israel as a whole.
Typology here...very very basic stuff. Physical/Spritual.
How in the world can you spiritualize this and not the lake of fire? Not a stick of sense there. You seem to pick and choose an awful lot. I think preterism is off it's rocker in some areas. But it's just like any other doctrine or belief that you try to stick in a box and wrap up with a pretty bow to make it neat and tidy. It's too scary otherwise. I know.

Anyway, yes, I fully understand the types and shadows, and I am a partial preterist, so I understand where you are coming from much of the time. But, this WOULD NOT make sense here. I'm sorry.

If you were sitting in Capernaum when Jesus walked up to your group and started talking about Sodom having a better time at judgment, what would you, as a Jew, be thinking?

I'll tell you what they were thinking:

From the Babylonian Talmud:http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedr...edrin_109.html

The men of Sodom have no portion in the future world, as it is written, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly: wicked - in this world, and sinners - in respect of the world to come.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
How in the world can you spiritualize this and not the lake of fire?
I don't. The Lake of Fire is a spritual place, for souls that are damend.

Quote:
Anyway, yes, I fully understand the types and shadows
Not really...or else you would understand what Ezekiel 16 means, and the same with Matthew 11.

Quote:
If you were sitting in Capernaum when Jesus walked up to your group and started talking about Sodom having a better time at judgment, what would you, as a Jew, be thinking?
I had better listen to Him and run when the armies surrounded Jerusalem.

Quote:
The men of Sodom have no portion in the future world, as it is written, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly: wicked - in this world, and sinners - in respect of the world to come.
I agree...the men of Sodom didn't. They were judged along with everyone else at the GWTJ of works. They died in the fire, and now their souls are being tormented with the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire and brimstone, that never goes out.
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't. The Lake of Fire is a spritual place, for souls that are damend.
In the presence of the lamb. A stream of fire comes forth from God's throne.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I had better listen to Him and run when the armies surrounded Jerusalem.
Dang it, sciotamicks. If Jesus came up to you and said Sodom would still have been standing, WOULD HAVE (past tense) been standing, what would that have meant to you? This isn't rocket science.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I agree...the men of Sodom didn't. They were judged along with everyone else at the GWTJ of works. They died in the fire, and now their souls are being tormented with the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire and brimstone, that never goes out.
Jesus was trying to say something to some very wicked men, sciotamicks. These men thought that surely Sodom and it's people were in the mythological hells, the ones they picked up from all the heathens they weren't supposed to get involved with, for eternity, while they would sit with Abraham. Pretty much the attitude of the Pharisees today.

So, you agree with the Babylonian Talmud (which also speaks of hell and pretty much everyone being tossed in): The men of Sodom have no portion in the future world, as it is written, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly: wicked - in this world, and sinners - in respect of the world to come.

And you don't believe anything in the Old Testament about death being sleep. Or even Jesus' own words.

Not many people in Christianity do believe the Bible. They believe in paganized tradition's version of it, sadly. God will find little faith here. What does that mean?

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 07:08 PM..
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