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Old 05-15-2010, 03:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Preteristvision - Encyclopedia - H

Hell (a.k.a. Lake of Fire, Gehenna)

The New Testament presentation of "hell" derives from NT passages with the phrase "gehenna of fire," or "lake of fire." For example:

"Be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna [hell]." (Matthew 10:28 - Young's Literal Translation)

"Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna [hell]" (Luke 12:5 - Young's Literal Translation)

"If thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire [hell]--where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. (Mark 9:43-48 - Young's Liiteral Translation)

I saw the dead, great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds...And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12,15))

In Mt 10:28 and Luke 12:5, we see that none were to fear mere physical death, such as martyrdom or the Roman slaughter of AD 70; rather they were to fear what God could do to them after physical death, in the gehenna of the afterlife: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]." We see God afflicts the departed soul with gehenna--something no mere mortal could do by killing the body alone. The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.

Such warning of hell is seen in other NT verses. In Mk 9:42, the fate of being killed is said to be better than the fate awaiting false teachers. A fate worse than being merely physically killed can only speak of a worse punishment post-mortem. And in Mk 9:43-48, cited above, the sinner is told to fear being cast into gehenna the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (emphasis is on the ongoing nature of their punishment).

In Luke 16:22-28, we see the Old Testament Hadean scenario as it was known in the time of Jesus--i.e., a post-mortem probationary state wherein some wicked ones were experiencing suffering. Christ's description fully matches Josephus' discourse on hades, wherein the Lake of Fire destiny of the wicked is claimed to be even worse than that experienced in Hades.

In Mt 25:41, the wicked are sent into "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The phrase "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and angels" cannot mean the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem at AD 70, but must speak of a punishment of the non-corporeal realm (for evil angels cannot have been dumped into the Valley of Hinnom by the Romans at AD 70). The everlasting fire prepared for the fallen angels and the devil (Mt 25:41) was likewise the destination for wicked men (Mt 25:41). In 2 Peter 2:4,9, we get a glimpse of the punishment of the wicked angels. Again, punishment of angels cannot speak of the slaughter and disposal of people in the refuse heap of South Jerusalem at AD 70--rather, it speaks of punishments in the non-corporeal realm. Importantly, the fate of the wicked angels is also the fate of wicked men (Matt 25:41), and Jude 1:22-23 instructs that preaching the gospel to men for salvation equates to saving them from "fire."

Finally, in Rev 11:18 and Rev 20:15-18, the judgment of dead ones is mentioned, which unquestionably speaks of post mortem judgment. This judgment of the dead is actually detailed in Rev 20:15-18, where the dead are thrown into the lake of fire (i.e, post-mortem people are thrown into the gehenna of fire). This cannot be the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem with the Romans, but rather is the traditional hell designated for the wicked in the afterlife. Since the passage speaks of dead individuals sent to the gehenna of fire, it cannot be threatening physical death by the Romans at AD 70 in the Valley of Hinnom. These dead people are already removed from the land of the living on earth.


Please don't let this be your fate.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
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this is interesting concerning the valley of Hinnom ("hell") and the lake of fire

The Lake of Fire: What and When? (http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/restknowledge/rk2/lakeoffire.htm - broken link)

Quote:
The Lake of Fire and Gehenna [another name for 'hell' in the King James Version] are NOT the same. Gehenna is located on the southern edges of Jerusalem, and is sometimes called Tophet. The Valley of Hinnom is not a "Lake."

When Jesus established His kingdom, gives salvation to all who will receive it, He will heal the Lake of Fire. Ezekiel reveals that fresh water will come from under the new Temple and heal (Ezek. 47). Fresh healing waters will go eastward toward the Dead Sea. This water will heal the Valley of Hinnom [Gehenna] and render it holy to the Lord. "And the whole valley of the dead bodies [from the battle of Armageddon], and of the ASHES, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord" (Jer. 31:40).

Gehenna fire will end. All things will be restored to beauty and perfection.

Last edited by svenM; 05-15-2010 at 06:18 AM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Preteristvision - Encyclopedia - H

Hell (a.k.a. Lake of Fire, Gehenna)

The New Testament presentation of "hell" derives from NT passages with the phrase "gehenna of fire," or "lake of fire." For example:

"Be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna [hell]." (Matthew 10:28 - Young's Literal Translation)

"Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna [hell]" (Luke 12:5 - Young's Literal Translation)

"If thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire [hell]--where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. (Mark 9:43-48 - Young's Liiteral Translation)

I saw the dead, great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds...And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12,15))

In Mt 10:28 and Luke 12:5, we see that none were to fear mere physical death, such as martyrdom or the Roman slaughter of AD 70; rather they were to fear what God could do to them after physical death, in the gehenna of the afterlife: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]." We see God afflicts the departed soul with gehenna--something no mere mortal could do by killing the body alone. The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.

Such warning of hell is seen in other NT verses. In Mk 9:42, the fate of being killed is said to be better than the fate awaiting false teachers. A fate worse than being merely physically killed can only speak of a worse punishment post-mortem. And in Mk 9:43-48, cited above, the sinner is told to fear being cast into gehenna the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (emphasis is on the ongoing nature of their punishment).

In Luke 16:22-28, we see the Old Testament Hadean scenario as it was known in the time of Jesus--i.e., a post-mortem probationary state wherein some wicked ones were experiencing suffering. Christ's description fully matches Josephus' discourse on hades, wherein the Lake of Fire destiny of the wicked is claimed to be even worse than that experienced in Hades.

In Mt 25:41, the wicked are sent into "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The phrase "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and angels" cannot mean the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem at AD 70, but must speak of a punishment of the non-corporeal realm (for evil angels cannot have been dumped into the Valley of Hinnom by the Romans at AD 70). The everlasting fire prepared for the fallen angels and the devil (Mt 25:41) was likewise the destination for wicked men (Mt 25:41). In 2 Peter 2:4,9, we get a glimpse of the punishment of the wicked angels. Again, punishment of angels cannot speak of the slaughter and disposal of people in the refuse heap of South Jerusalem at AD 70--rather, it speaks of punishments in the non-corporeal realm. Importantly, the fate of the wicked angels is also the fate of wicked men (Matt 25:41), and Jude 1:22-23 instructs that preaching the gospel to men for salvation equates to saving them from "fire."

Finally, in Rev 11:18 and Rev 20:15-18, the judgment of dead ones is mentioned, which unquestionably speaks of post mortem judgment. This judgment of the dead is actually detailed in Rev 20:15-18, where the dead are thrown into the lake of fire (i.e, post-mortem people are thrown into the gehenna of fire). This cannot be the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem with the Romans, but rather is the traditional hell designated for the wicked in the afterlife. Since the passage speaks of dead individuals sent to the gehenna of fire, it cannot be threatening physical death by the Romans at AD 70 in the Valley of Hinnom. These dead people are already removed from the land of the living on earth.


Please don't let this be your fate.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
First, I wanted to clarify your position here.. The OT doesn't use Gehenna when discussing the fate after death. So how do you understand passages in the OT which don't speak of death as anything but an unconscious state? Did Jesus die trying to spread the message that hell was real? Is that the good news? Did Christ teach about an afterlife at all?

Second, No one died in Gehenna (except for the poor sacrificed children from the OT) but were thrown there after death. So you say it cannot be that physical death that is spoken of as fulfilled in 70 AD but really these people DIED in the city and were THROWN into Gehenna as dead bodies. These dead bodies (crawling with maggots no doubt) were burned with the garbage.

I can just imagine how angry it made the self-professed leaders of the Jews to hear they would be burned in Gehenna just like the garbage and common criminal bodies. Their reputation, their life, their SOUL would be tarnished forever (in their minds, right?). This is why it IS a fulfillment of all of those verses. The public saw that all the self-professed knowledgeable GOOD MEN were now burning in Gehenna after being slaughtered in the city and their temple was gone.

To them it seems Jesus hit the hammer on the nail.. or whatever that saying is.

Therefore, the proof you provide that hell is real is no proof at all. LIVE people were never burned in Gehenna, and yet their SOUL (whole being) was destroyed. What the living thought of them (the representation of their soul) AND their physical body was destroyed.

Anyway.... IMO
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
this is interesting concerning the valley of Hinnom ("hell") and the lake of fire

The Lake of Fire: What and When? (http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/restknowledge/rk2/lakeoffire.htm - broken link)
The valley of himmon is a fertile area right now.... why does it need to be burning with garbage (not gonna get by the Israeli EPA) and dead bodies again so that it can become fertile also? That doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
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Katonjj...allegory...symbolism...types...physical manifestations, spiritual realities.
That is the message here.
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj...allegory...symbolism...types...physical manifestations, spiritual realities.
That is the message here.
OK... How then, given my previous post, can Gehenna be the same as the lake of fire? Dead bodies burning doesn't equate to conscious burning in a lake of fire....
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
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Religion will NEVER stop with the fear tactics. It CAN'T! It will lose it's POWER!

What in the world would happen if all religion REQUIRED it's followers to LOVE THEIR ENEMIES!

What in the world would happen if nobody was TERRIFIED of going against their religious leaders because of the fear of being set on fire forever in the afterlife?

The fear of God and the FEAR and HORROR of a mythological Greek hell are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!

THINK! Even though sciotamicks told you not to in a previous thread.
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
OK... How then, given my previous post, can Gehenna be the same as the lake of fire? Dead bodies burning doesn't equate to conscious burning in a lake of fire....
It's the continuous burning that does....

From the article:

The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It's the continuous burning that does....

From the article:

The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.
Sodom was destroyed with ETERNAL FIRE! Sodom will be restored in a future prophecy! Put those puzzle pieces together. Using ETERNAL and FIRE in a sentence DOES NOT MAKE IT A LITERAL ETERNAL FIRE! NOTHING is eternal EXCEPT GOD!

GOD IS A CONSUMING and DEVOURING FIRE AND HE IS ETERNAL! He used HIS JUDGMENT AGAINST THEM! YES, their smoke went up, literally! But, they are NOT going to be tortured FOREVER AND EVER in a mythological Greek Hell!

Sodom, in it's FORMER STATE will NEVER RISE AGAIN!

Revelation uses this phrase, "the smoke of their torment went up for ever and ever." WHY?????

There will be NO EVIL IN THIS UNIVERSE when God is done with it! TRUST ME!
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Sodom was destroyed with ETERNAL FIRE! Sodom will be restored in a future prophecy!
Sodom was restored already. Hint.....Where our Lord was Crucified....another hint....New Jerusalem.

The rest of your post was irrelevant IMO
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