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Old 05-16-2010, 07:40 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Very few ever reach Spiritual maturity in this life, in this world. We are all still children in Gods eyes. Most humans are not capable of properly discerning right from wrong either ... That is why discernment is considered a gift.

1Cr 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Until a person is born of the spirit, they cannot discern the things of the spirit.
What is being referenced here is not the basic understanding of right/wrong. It is referencing scriptural truth. The bible is not understood but through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, but I have to decide that I am going to ask for His guidance in understanding it, why do you think people pray before reading the bible? UR ideology so distorts God's purpose that it saddens me there are so many that believe it. I can't even put into words what it does to the image of God. UR lacks any understanding of the reality of true love.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:47 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,202,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
What is being referenced here is not the basic understanding of right/wrong. It is referencing scriptural truth. The bible is not understood but through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, but I have to decide that I am going to ask for His guidance in understanding it, why do you think people pray before reading the bible? UR ideology so distorts God's purpose that it saddens me there are so many that believe it. I can't even put into words what it does to the image of God. UR lacks any understanding of the reality of true love.
Whats being referenced here is spiritual discernment. Anyone can read the bible, not just anyone can discern the truth that is in it. Sure we pray for God to aid us in our lives, but that is because we are no longer natural men or women, we have been born again of the spirit of God and now we are in the process of learning to discern the things of the spirit of God. Those who have not yet been born of the spirit cannot discern the things of the spirit.

You are saddened by my words, most likely because you think you have earned your salvation and i am telling you that did not. Whatever we do that is good, including our faith and belief and repentence, is the work of God within us, it is not our own work.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Please don't distort the word of God. Christ died on the cross so that all could be saved, not that all would be saved. Salvation is available to all, but all will not choose to accept the gift that is freely given. What don't you understand about the concept of choice/love/force? You seem to not understand any of these basic concepts. Adam and Eve were given a choice in the Garden. Calvary is all about making a choice available to us all, it doesn't guarantee that all will make the right choice. If it isn't about choice then calvary is meaningless. Why did He have to die, if we don't have choice?
The wages of sin is DEATH!! God cannot let immortal, darkened humanity run around forever, now can He?? If we had immortality to begin with, which we did NOT, why would the New Testament say we had to PUT IT ON??


Christ had to DIE so he could take our punishment; Death!! So He now has the keys and can RAISE ALL from the dead!!!

I think that is pretty darn neat!!
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:56 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We dont choose to love, we fall into love ...

Now i'm starting to see the maturity level of the whole UR concept. True love is not the emotionally immature love of a teenage couple who "falls in love." True love is making a choice to love someone who doesn't deserve it, like Christ did for us. True love is not forcing someone to love us back. True love is honoring someones request, even though it will hurt you. True love is what was done at Calvary, so that we might choose Him and live.

The pharisees witnessed Christ in the flesh and still rejected Him. If Christ in the flesh wasn't going to change their minds, why would anything else? They were given every opportunity, but they choose to reject Him. Satan witnessed all the glory of Heaven yet he still rebelled against God. He was free to make that choice just as we are free to make a choice for or against God.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:04 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,202,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Now i'm starting to see the maturity level of the whole UR concept. True love is not the emotionally immature love of a teenage couple who "falls in love." True love is making a choice to love someone who doesn't deserve it, like Christ did for us. True love is not forcing someone to love us back. True love is honoring someones request, even though it will hurt you. True love is what was done at Calvary, so that we might choose Him and live.

The pharisees witnessed Christ in the flesh and still rejected Him. If Christ in the flesh wasn't going to change their minds, why would anything else? They were given every opportunity, but they choose to reject Him. Satan witnessed all the glory of Heaven yet he still rebelled against God. He was free to make that choice just as we are free to make a choice for or against God.

When you have true love, you don't choose to love someone, you simply love them. Christ didnt choose to love us, he made us, and he loves us as his family. I did not choose to love my mother and father or my brothers and sisters, i just love them, even when i am angry with them. The same for every other person on earth. I did not choose to love them, God simply put love into my heart for them all.

The pharisees were blinded by God, read Romans 11 ... God bound them to disobedience so that he might have mercy on all people. And that is why Christ prayed to his father when he was on the cross that he should forgive them, because they were spiritually blind did not know what they were doing. Not because they knew what they were doing and CHOSE not to do it.

God has mercy because we do not deserve it, not because we deserve it. God does not Choose to love, God IS love ...
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:09 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,538 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Whats being referenced here is spiritual discernment. Anyone can read the bible, not just anyone can discern the truth that is in it. Sure we pray for God to aid us in our lives, but that is because we are no longer natural men or women, we have been born again of the spirit of God and now we are in the process of learning to discern the things of the spirit of God. Those who have not yet been born of the spirit cannot discern the things of the spirit.

You are saddened by my words, most likely because you think you have earned your salvation and i am telling you that did not. Whatever we do that is good, including our faith and belief and repentence, is the work of God within us, it is not our own work.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

My salvation comes from no one but Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never can or ever will do anything to earn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not once have I ever stated anything to the contrary. You seem to have missed what I was saying in my post, because I said exactly what you just reiterated. I understand fully that anyone can read the bible, atheists are reading it all the time, but it is only through the Holy Spirit that any spiritual truth is discerned. However, that does not mean that we lack the basic ability to know right/wrong. Every single human born in good health, is born with the basic ability to determine right/wrong. 1st semester psych course will teach you that.

If you are stranded on your rooftop in the middle of a flood and some guy comes along in a boat and tells you to jump in, who saved you? Did you save yourself because it was you who followed the instructions of the guy in the boat? No, had he not been there you would have no hope, so your entire salvation is credited to the guy in the boat. Our salvation is much the same way. If you don't agree can you please tell me how it isn't?
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:12 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,538 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
When you have true love, you don't choose to love someone, you simply love them. Christ didnt choose to love us, he made us, and he loves us as his family. I did not choose to love my mother and father or my brothers and sisters, i just love them, even when i am angry with them. The same for every other person on earth. I did not choose to love them, God simply put love into my heart for them all.

The pharisees were blinded by God, read Romans 11 ... God bound them to disobedience so that he might have mercy on all people. And that is why Christ prayed to his father when he was on the cross that he should forgive them, because they were spiritually blind did not know what they were doing. Not because they knew what they were doing and CHOSE not to do it.

God has mercy because we do not deserve it, not because we deserve it. God does not Choose to love, God IS love ...

So, what you are saying then is that nobody can ever be held accountable for their actions?
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:13 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,538 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
. God does not Choose to love, God IS love ...
God is Love because He chooses to be. All the more reason for us to love Him.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:15 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,202,500 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
My salvation comes from no one but Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never can or ever will do anything to earn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not once have I ever stated anything to the contrary. You seem to have missed what I was saying in my post, because I said exactly what you just reiterated. I understand fully that anyone can read the bible, atheists are reading it all the time, but it is only through the Holy Spirit that any spiritual truth is discerned. However, that does not mean that we lack the basic ability to know right/wrong. Every single human born in good health, is born with the basic ability to determine right/wrong. 1st semester psych course will teach you that.

If you are stranded on your rooftop in the middle of a flood and some guy comes along in a boat and tells you to jump in, who saved you? Did you save yourself because it was you who followed the instructions of the guy in the boat? No, had he not been there you would have no hope, so your entire salvation is credited to the guy in the boat. Our salvation is much the same way. If you don't agree can you please tell me how it isn't?
You said in summery that you made a choice to believe in Christ, and because of that choice to believe you are saved.

Christ doesn't come by in a boat and offer to save us, he snatches us up out of whatever situation we are in and renews our minds. He recreates us ... He makes us new, and then we believe.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:30 PM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,658,083 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let me ask you, when you read a particular scripture or verse, do you often see words that are not there? It's possible that you might be suffering from a reading disorder. I know a lot of people who suffer from dyslexia, and I'm not one to make light of it, or suggest that you do, but it is a possibility.

For instance, when you referenced Mat 10:28 above, you used the phrase "are thrown" for "is able". By doing so, you changed what Jesus taught. Here, let's read what Jesus said (I'll use the NASB version that you usually quote from):

Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus said that we are to fear Him who "is able" to destroy. It does not say that God will destroy or that the lost "are thrown" into hell. Do you see the difference here? Your reading of the text has words that are not really there, and by doing so you're creating arguments to support a particular doctrine that is really not being taught. At least not here, with this verse. But I'm not sure if you're doing this purposely or for some other reason (such as a reading disability). If your doing this on purpose, do you see how perverse it is? Particularly when it comes to maligning the character of God?
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 7:23 ''And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been repared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God doesn't make empty threats. He has given crystal clear warnings of the final deposition of the unbeliever.

Warnings that universalists choose to ignore and attempt to get others to ignore.
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