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Old 05-17-2010, 06:22 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
forgive me for truncating your post, but I just wanted to save some space. After reading through several of your texts and reading your interpretation on Peter's situation I started to see where UR's are going off course. People often times cannot draw the distinction between God knowing the future vs Him causing it. Peter's denial of Christ was predicted, but it was not predestined. There is a huge difference. I may know that if I leave cookies in a certain place, my nephew will certainly take one, however he does so out of his own choice, not because I forced him to such an action. God sees the end from the beginning, so he knows what will happen, but that does not mean that He causes it to happen. Christ knew that His own people would reject Him, but that does not mean that He caused them to reject Him. How could Christ have been upset or saddened by Judas' actions if He was the one that caused them? God did not want His people to be disobedient and have to wander in the desert for 40 years, but He knew it was going to happen. God didn't want sin to enter His universe but He saw that it would happen and planned accordingly.
Well ...I will say that we are not "off course" as you say. But I will say that you see a truth that many either do not WANT to see or they are just blinded to it. (I acctully have a tickling sense of excitement for you).

In your analogy of your nephew you state that "I may know...my nephew will take one". In God's analogy, He KNOWs what a sinner (left to himself) is going to do. A sinner will SIN. I believe that "every good thing comes from above", therefore, any good one does is OF God. This (hopefully) you see very well, that given a "choice" a sinner (left to himself) will choose to SIN.

Yes prediction is different than predestination. All of them claimed what Peter said Him, not just Peter (Mat 26:35) You are correct on this as well, as long as you are presenting it as God "knows" what they will do. But through this "prediction" they were "predestined" to be sons of God. They had to fail first. This was God's plan.With most of Humanity God does not even have to steer them in any direction, because they will DO what they kNOW to do which is SIN. Allowing them to DO it is the very "cause" I am talking about. You are correct again, by saying that "God sees the end from the beginning". A "sinner" will sin. He will let them sin, for they TOO have a purpose, or else how can God "use" the sinner for His OWN purposes (as in using the Assyrian King) if He did not. Until He "touches" them to steer them in a different or correct direction they will stay on the path of a sinner.

To say that God did 'not' want these things to happen is far from being correct. God had a plan from the beginning. Believe me, He knows exactly what He is doing. God's creation did not "malfuntion" as some say. All that has happened is OF God. He brings 'evil' as well as 'good' into the world. As you say "God sees the end from the beginning" of His WHOLE plan too. A sinner "will fail" on his own, in whatever he does, and God knows this. Think about how hard it would be for a God to create "some good" and "some bad" from the beginning and allowing them to DO of their character. But for God to put HIS HAND on a sinner and "cause" him to do good is a much better learning experience for the sinner.

I must admit, if I am understanding your point on this correctly, that I applaud your thinking on this issue. Not many have these eyes
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
According to your eisigesis they are not connected ... According to how yo interpret scriptures. Bu the language used in 1 Cor 3 and in revelations 20 ...

In both instances we are told of the judgment of works ... and those who have no good works are made to pass through the fire. they are saved as though by fire.

In 1 Cor. 3 we are told EVERY MAN'S works shall be manifest, and those who have no good work shall suffer loss, but they will be saved as thoug by passing through the fire ...

Paul makes no distinction in 1 Cor. 3 between believer and unbeliever, he says simply, EVERY MAN ... I take him to mean exactly what he says, that he is making reference to every person on the earth. Not only believers in this chapter. If he had meant to refer only to the believers as being saved as though by fire, he would have said so ... He did not.

Its seems to me that the reason why you cannot see the fact that these two references to the judgment of peoples works in both 1 Cor. 3 and Rev. 20 are making reference to the same judgment is due to your affinity to the false doctrine of ET, so that you are unable to see the truth of these things. You don't want to believe in UR, so you cannot see the connections that are plainly there in the language of the texts.


Selah ...

No Ironmaw, you apply refinement to those of the rebellious wicked when it is strictly and contextually applied to teachers of the faith, priests and saints.
So what if it says every man? It is obvious through countless areas of scripture that is hardly ever denoted. But then again, you are UR, so as long as you continue the ultra-literal application of hyperboles, symbols, apocalyptic prose, and parables, every bit of scripture you interpret is going to be in error, as UR has been refuted on all levels of interpretation. If you want to refute the claim, do it, but leave this ET rhetorical assumptions outside this thread. Stick to the scripture and exegete them. BTW, Rev 20 has two types of dead, those of the covenant and those outside the covenant, and 1 Cor 3, is being spoken to men of the faith, the Corinthian church. Your failure to contextualize the scripture is evident, as is the fruit of it, as UR is just that, the fruit of your interpretation.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-17-2010 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You are mistakenly taking that book of revelation as if were in Chronological order, that is not the case.

The part of Revelations 21 which is speaking of the new heavens and new earth stops when Christ says "it is done" in Rev 21:6. In Rev 21:7-8, Christ in only reiterating what has already been said in the past chapters in summery, and then in Rev 21:9-27 John is made to measure the New city and told that so sinner will ever enter into it so long as they are yet sinners. The New Jerusalem comes on the seen before the new Heavens and earth and it will also exist in the new heavens and earth after evil has been destroyed and God is all in all ... We are told elsewhere that Christ will destroy all the works of the devil, and that death will be done away with. So it is contradictory to assume that death and sin will continue to exist throughout everlasting in the new heavens and earth. For death and sin to exist in the new heavens and earth, so must the works of the devil still hold sway within creation and Christ would never be able to say that he has destroyed the works of the devil. I know you believe in everlasting evil, but the scriptures are clear that evil is not everlasting.
You are so very incorrect. The New Jerusalem does not come on the scene before the NH and E....where the heck do you get all this stuff...no wonder your view is in error. Revelation has chronological parts....Hint>>>Rev 6 and Rev 20...begins with CHRIST"S ministry and DEATH....Rev 20-22 are chronological, but like I said before, how could you discern this is obvious, considering the UR paradigm. It is all messed up...you guys can't even agree on what FOREVER means.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-17-2010 at 07:33 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
That's right. CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL universalism is the opposite of what the OP starts with.
There is no such thing as Biblical Universalism. UR contradicts the Bible which outlines the need for steadfast faith and repentance.

Quote:
Sciota- why in the world do you say it's "my opinion" and I must prove it? CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL universalism is based on Jesus as the eternal centerpiece and repentance and rebirth as universal as well. There is not one reason for me to read on as the CORNERSTONE of the article is flawed to the core.
That is a claim you press, thinking that Christ is the centerpiece, when it certainly isn't. Where UR places Christ, is not at the middle or center, but places Him outside of man being in the center, as the redemption of all mankind for all time hinges the belief system of UR at its core. Yes, Christ is the saving grace of that effect, but He certainly isn't the focus, as is the focus of the redemption of man. What Christianity focuses on, is the need for Christ in man, in order for him to be saved, so that he can inherit eternal life. After death, man is not man, but a spirit housed with an incorruptible body, as a new creation. Not flesh and blood. Not man. Not corruptible.

You have to shed one body to recieve the next, and you may only recieve the next if you proclaim your belief in Christ in the first. This is the fundamental teachings of 1 Cor 15. IN CHRIST, NO DEATH. NO CHRIST, DEATH. Corruptible DIE Without Christ, INCORRUPTIBLE RAISED from "being sown" in the corruptible. Get it?

Maybe that's too much meat for you.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-17-2010 at 07:32 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:04 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,295 posts, read 20,031,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What Christianity focuses on, is the need for Christ in man, in order for him to be saved, so that he can inherit eternal life.
I disagree that Christianity focuses on man's need for Christ , i believe it focuses on trying to convince man of how awful he is ( thus condemning him), it proclaims a contradicting message of "God loves you but is against you in your sin", rather than proclaiming the true gospel which is God loves you no matter how bad you may feel about yourself , no matter how bad someone has told you you are,and that He really does love you in your worse state(which only the Holy Spirit can convict and convince you of).
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
.....it focuses on trying to convince man of how awful he is ( thus condemning him), it proclaims a contradicting message of "God loves you but is against you in your sin", rather than proclaiming the true gospel which is God loves you no matter how bad you may feel about yourself , no matter how bad someone has told you you are,and that He really does love you in your worse state(which only the Holy Spirit can convict and convince you of).
Which is exactly why man needs Christ.
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Old 05-18-2010, 05:55 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,575,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is no such thing as Biblical Universalism. UR contradicts the Bible which outlines the need for steadfast faith and repentance.

That is a claim you press, thinking that Christ is the centerpiece, when it certainly isn't. Where UR places Christ, is not at the middle or center, but places Him outside of man being in the center, as the redemption of all mankind for all time hinges the belief system of UR at its core. Yes, Christ is the saving grace of that effect, but He certainly isn't the focus, as is the focus of the redemption of man. What Christianity focuses on, is the need for Christ in man, in order for him to be saved, so that he can inherit eternal life.
Certainly isn't the focus? Your system is the one which focuses on the power of man to inhibit universal redemption. Weak and pathetic interpretations/philosophies of man.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:35 PM
 
701 posts, read 659,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I disagree that Christianity focuses on man's need for Christ , i believe it focuses on trying to convince man of how awful he is ( thus condemning him), it proclaims a contradicting message of "God loves you but is against you in your sin", rather than proclaiming the true gospel which is God loves you no matter how bad you may feel about yourself , no matter how bad someone has told you you are,and that He really does love you in your worse state(which only the Holy Spirit can convict and convince you of).

Why do so many people feel that love should permit sin? Love will always forgive sin, but it never permits it. If God stands against you it isn't because He doesn't love you, it is because you have chosen to love sin above Him. Imagine a judge who has a son that has chosen a life of crime. When the son is caught and brought before the judge, is the judge not against the son? Does the judge still love his son? Of course he does, but he still has to deal justly with him. The son was given every opportunity to go to law school and spend his life on his father's side of justice, but he rejected that for his life of crime. The son chose to stand against his father.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Certainly isn't the focus? Your system is the one which focuses on the power of man to inhibit universal redemption. Weak and pathetic interpretations/philosophies of man.
Is that all you got for an ad hom? Pretty weak and incorrect IMO. It is obvious you know nothing about the faith. Just the weak interpretation of some select Universalists that were excommunicated or converted due to their errors. I rely on the scripture, and not the minds of men, like UR does. Remember, SOLA SCRIPTURA. Something that UR fails time and again with, for thousands of years.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:10 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,209,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Is that all you got for an ad hom? Pretty weak and incorrect IMO. It is obvious you know nothing about the faith. Just the weak interpretation of some select Universalists that were excommunicated or converted due to their errors. I rely on the scripture, and not the minds of men, like UR does. Remember, SOLA SCRIPTURA. Something that UR fails time and again with, for thousands of years.

Sciotamicks ... I have to say that sometimes i get the feeling this is all just some big game to you ...

Selah ...
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