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Old 05-18-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,577,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Remember, SOLA SCRIPTURA. Something that UR fails time and again with, for thousands of years.
ET fails the test time and time again, if that's as deep as you go.

But because He wants us to know Him first, then to be shown truth in the written word, there will appear a slew of scripture for both the restitution of all things, and for the narrow gate - one must be led by the spirit to see that there is no contradiction. If we don't know Him, we won't be able to discern what is spiritually communicated.

There is on the one hand law, condemning all, while on the other hand there is the gospel, with good news for every one.

Apparently contradictory
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:53 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,463,277 times
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Univiersalism is biblical.

Concordant Publishing Concern

Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind

God's Truth For Today!
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,296,210 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Opening sentence:

However, this false teaching does not reflect the mind of Christ, nor has it ever entered into our Fatherís heart to do such a thing to the majority of his creation (Jer. 32:32).

Jer 32:32 KJV Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Context = Israel

Jer 32:40 KJV And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

New Testament Context = Israel, Jew and Gentile, not entire creation, but those of the faith.

Don't really know why the writer opened up with this, but he is in serious error. Seems right on target though for a Universalist.

Then he uses another verse that seems ever so redundant as well:

The Bible teaches us that Christ will save "to the uttermost." The Cross has no limits! It is not limited by manís will or the devilís schemes. All things will be reconciled back to the Father by the blood of His Cross (Col 1: 20).

Colossians 1:20 (NKJV) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever? Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil?

Colossians 3:10-11 (NKJV) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.


Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.

He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence"Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all.
This is the way I think we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.
But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, namely the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." So I think the "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church.

David Curtis

Again, the Universalist is way out of context and forcefitting his view into the text. I read the article, and you know what, I will be here all day, but, all of these verse and more are covered here:

Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

And here:

Universalism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,296,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And all this time I thought it was "you know nothing" statements that started it!

Shame on Eusebius!
Again, the first stone was thrown by firstborn888 here:

Quote:
Your system is the one which focuses on the power of man to inhibit universal redemption. Weak and pathetic interpretations/philosophies of man.
So my interpretations are weak and pathetic?

What FB888 presents is an opnion, that needs to be validated in order for it to count. Contend the scriptures, or go join the cult.

Whatever you all prefer?
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:33 PM
 
3,582 posts, read 460,853 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again, the first stone was thrown by firstborn888 here:



So my interpretations are weak and pathetic?

What FB888 presents is an opnion, that needs to be validated in order for it to count. Contend the scriptures, or go join the cult.

Whatever you all prefer?
An eye for an eye???

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:44 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,211,726 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Opening sentence:

However, this false teaching does not reflect the mind of Christ, nor has it ever entered into our Fatherís heart to do such a thing to the majority of his creation (Jer. 32:32).

Jer 32:32 KJV Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Context = Israel

Jer 32:40 KJV And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

New Testament Context = Israel, Jew and Gentile, not entire creation, but those of the faith.

Don't really know why the writer opened up with this, but he is in serious error. Seems right on target though for a Universalist.

Then he uses another verse that seems ever so redundant as well:

The Bible teaches us that Christ will save "to the uttermost." The Cross has no limits! It is not limited by manís will or the devilís schemes. All things will be reconciled back to the Father by the blood of His Cross (Col 1: 20).

Colossians 1:20 (NKJV) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever? Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil?

Colossians 3:10-11 (NKJV) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.


Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.

He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence"Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all.
This is the way I think we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.
But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, namely the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." So I think the "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church.

David Curtis

Again, the Universalist is way out of context and forcefitting his view into the text. I read the article, and you know what, I will be here all day, but, all of these verse and more are covered here:

Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

And here:

Universalism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Again, your eisiges fails in the fact that the Gospel teaches that the Covenant God made with Abraham for Israel was enlarged to encompass all nations and all humanity. The new covenant is an extension of the old so that it is made with the entire human race.


Psa 72:1-19
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.




Psa 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.




Psa 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.




Isa 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Isa 25:6-7
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.


Isa 66:18
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



Amen ...
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,296,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Again, your eisiges fails in the fact that the Gospel teaches that the Covenant God made with Abraham for Israel was enlarged to encompass all nations and all humanity. The new covenant is an extension of the old so that it is made with the entire human race.
More rhetoric again. Above and Below is a prime example of eisegesis.

What does covenant mean to you?

Quote:
Psa 72:1-19
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

Psa 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.

Psa 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Isa 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isa 25:6-7
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Isa 66:18
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
All of the above was fulfilled at Christ's death, ascension, pentacost, and coming in judgement upon Israel, and through the resurection OF THE DEAD, and the marraige/parousia of the CHURCH, those of the faith, chaste from the tribulation under Nero and the Jewish Polity. Read your history books. To transport any of these verses and apply it to all humankind, past present and future as benefitting from the salvific event, regardless of faith in this life, is not even eisegetical, it is below that completely, and should be rendered as a blip on the screen.

I am still quite amazed that none of you can grasp the fundamental teaching of the verse many of you hold so dear in support of UR.

1 Cor 15 :36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So it is "also" with the resurrection of the dead. So it is with the believer upon confession. When you accept Christ, you DIE, you are SOWN and RAISED to GLORY with Christ. When you accpet Christ, you put your sin nature to DEATH, and you are IMMEDIATELY RAISED to LIFE WITH CHRIST. You Must accept Christ in this life, to be in covenant.
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Old 05-18-2010, 05:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,211,726 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
More rhetoric again. Above and Below is a prime example of eisegesis.

What does covenant mean to you?
1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain.
2. Law a. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.

3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.

From covenant - definition of covenant by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Quote:
All of the above was fulfilled at Christ's death, ascension, pentacost, and coming in judgement upon Israel, and through the resurection OF THE DEAD, and the marraige/parousia of the CHURCH, those of the faith, chaste from the tribulation under Nero and the Jewish Polity. Read your history books. To transport any of these verses and apply it to all humankind, past present and future as benefitting from the salvific event, regardless of faith in this life, is not even eisegetical, it is below that completely, and should be rendered as a blip on the screen.
Your heart of stone and high mind are an obvious sign of personal contempt for humanity. You are an elitist, and that is sad.

Do you believe most people deserve to be tormented for eternity? Do you believe you do not deserve to be?


mis∑an∑thrope
Pronunciation: \ˈmi-sən-ˌthrōp\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misanthrōpos hating humankind, from misein to hate + anthrōpos human being
Date: 1683
: a person who hates or distrusts humankind



nar∑cis∑sism (nšrs-szm) also nar∑cism (-szm)n.1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.
4. The attribute of the human psyche charactized by admiration of oneself but within normal limits.




Quote:
I am still quite amazed that none of you can grasp the fundamental teaching of the verse many of you hold so dear in support of UR.

1 Cor 15 :36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So it is "also" with the resurrection of the dead. So it is with the believer upon confession. When you accept Christ, you DIE, you are SOWN and RAISED to GLORY with Christ. When you accpet Christ, you put your sin nature to DEATH, and you are IMMEDIATELY RAISED to LIFE WITH CHRIST. You Must accept Christ in this life, to be in covenant.
Every seed shall be given its own body by God, what is hard to understand about this? Everyone will die, and everyone will be quickened. As it is written ...

1 Cor 15 :36
[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened(zōopoieō), except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive(zōopoieō).


Made alive - Greek - zōopoieō

1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young
2) to cause to live, make alive, give life
a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
b) to restore to life
c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,296,210 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain.
2. Law a. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
Thanks for the dictionary terms. I meant what does the Covenant mean to you in regards to God and man, and what are the requirements of being in covenant with God and man. Remember, Christ fulills the law, so there is....a law.

Quote:
Your heart of stone and high mind are an obvious sign of personal contempt for humanity. You are an elitist, and that is sad.
And to what pupose serves this remark?

Quote:
Do you believe most people deserve to be tormented for eternity?
I believe all of us do.

Quote:
Do you believe you do not deserve to be?
The only reason why I don't deserve it....anymore...is because I believe in Christ, and God sees no sin on me, He sees His Son's blood.

Quote:
∑an∑thrope
Pronunciation: \ˈmi-sən-ˌthrōp\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misanthrōpos hating humankind, from misein to hate + anthrōpos human being
Date: 1683
: a person who hates or distrusts humankind

nar∑cis∑sism (nšrs-szm) also nar∑cism (-szm)n.1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.
4. The attribute of the human psyche charactized by admiration of oneself but within normal limits.
Again, is there a purpose for these remarks? Or are they just satidfying the beast inside you again with ET rhetoric?

Quote:
Every seed shall be given its own body by God, what is hard to understand about this? Everyone will die, and everyone will be quickened. As it is written ...
Again....so it is also with the resurrection of the dead....

What does that mean to you?
Paul is speaking of separate instances where in the same thing is taking place. The profession of Christ in the believer in parallel with Christ's death and resurrection, and the likeness of this same "spritual clothing" that will take place for those that have died in Adam, faithful servants of Christ....God...and His ordinances and law

When one accpets Christ Ironmaw, with all their heart and in complete surrender, they are PUT TO DEATH WITH HIM on the CROSS.

Sown - put to death
Raised - resurrected.

These bodies have nothing to do with your flesh.
THEY ARE RAISED TO LIFE WITH HIM.
Paul used not one, or two, but three events and instances in parallel, all derived from Christ's death and resurrection. He used what a believer receives at their new birth, what the church will recieve at the marriage/mystery/grafting/fulness, and what the faithful "dead ones" will receive that have died in Adam.

Right now, I am clothed with my incorruptible body. My corruptible body died the day I was saved, and continues to die every day as I walk in the faith, yet I wear a robe, a covered vestige of His blood

Heb 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

When I die, that is my physical body, not my corruptbile body, it will be devoured by the worms, and I will simply go to Heaven in my incorruptbile body.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:46 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,211,726 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thanks for the dictionary terms. I meant what does the Covenant mean to you in regards to God and man, and what are the requirements of being in covenant with God and man. Remember, Christ fulills the law, so there is....a law.
Man can do nothing to earn Gods grace. So the covenant God makes with man is one sided IMHO. God's faithfulness to his promise of saving the world through his son is the covenant.



Quote:
And to what pupose serves this remark?
To make you think ... And to let you know how i understand you and the reason for the position you take on salvation and damnation.



Quote:
I believe all of us do.
Then why do you get saved and most people do not? Does God love you more for some reason than he does those whom you believe he will damn for ever?

Quote:
The only reason why I don't deserve it....anymore...is because I believe in Christ, and God sees no sin on me, He sees His Son's blood.
So you do believe you are better than others who are not Christians? You believe that you earned salvation because you chose to believe ...



Quote:
Again, is there a purpose for these remarks? Or are they just satidfying the beast inside you again with ET rhetoric?
It is not a remark, it is the definition of a word. One which i posted to make you think about what you teach to be truth. You teach that most of the people God has made deserve to suffer for ever and you dont, and there is ultimately no reason for that other than hate and self worship when it all boils down.

You claim you deserve salvation because you chose to believe in Christ, so when you claim to worship Christ, i see that if fact you are worshiping your own decision making, as that is the final means of what you believe to be your salvation and not what Christ did on the cross.



Quote:
Again....so it is also with the resurrection of the dead....

What does that mean to you?
Paul is speaking of separate instances where in the same thing is taking place. The profession of Christ in the believer in parallel with Christ's death and resurrection, and the likeness of this same "spritual clothing" that will take place for those that have died in Adam, faithful servants of Christ....God...and His ordinances and law

When one accpets Christ Ironmaw, with all their heart and in complete surrender, they are PUT TO DEATH WITH HIM on the CROSS.

Sown - put to death
Raised - resurrected.

These bodies have nothing to do with your flesh.
THEY ARE RAISED TO LIFE WITH HIM.
Paul used not one, or two, but three events and instances in parallel, all derived from Christ's death and resurrection. He used what a believer receives at their new birth, what the church will recieve at the marriage/mystery/grafting/fulness, and what the faithful "dead ones" will receive that have died in Adam.

Right now, I am clothed with my incorruptible body. My corruptible body died the day I was saved, and continues to die every day as I walk in the faith, yet I wear a robe, a covered vestige of His blood

Heb 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

When I die, that is my physical body, not my corruptbile body, it will be devoured by the worms, and I will simply go to Heaven in my incorruptbile body.
You know that i believe that you are wrong about your opinion concerning spiritual and not literal resurrection. We are told in the scriptures that we will be resurrected even as Christ was resurrected. He was flesh and bone, could be seen touched and heard and appeared among men, his body was no longer in the tomb. His bodies remains are not on earth, he is alive in body not just in spirit. This fact alone puts the final nail in the grave of your doctrine IMO.
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