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Old 05-21-2010, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,403,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Hebrews also had a similar distinction of time, to the ancient Hebrew people the past was in front of them and the future was behind them. They had a cyclical understanding of time, not a linear as we do in the west.

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings

Sh'ma Ministries - Hebrew - Asheville, NC (http://www.shmaministries.com/Hebrew.html - broken link)
Thanks for those links, Ironmaw1776. I've got my Hebrew Aleph-Bet down. You gave me some vocabulary to learn.


Below are some snippets from the link below on the Hebrew's view of time. Maybe they will help, also.


skybooksusa.com/time-travel/timegod/hbrwtime.htm

Here is another example. The Hebrews did not speculate about duration--as in How long is the present? Many Western philosophers out of the Greek tradition found this question troubling. It occupied philosophers from Augustine to Henri Bergson.


Another way of seeing this difference is to notice that the Hebrews developed no idea of eternity as timelessness. This was a Greek notion. The Hebrews had no idea that there could be life and experience without time. For them, life was time, or better "to live was time." There was no time where there were no life events, and no life events where there was no time. In the Old Testament, life was humanity's form of existence (Job 1:21; Ps. 90:3-12) and this was time.
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Old 05-22-2010, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,317,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Um, sciota, Christ is still reigning in Revelation 20 and 21.
Sovereignties and authorities and power are still in force in Revelation 20 and 21.

So 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is not summed up in Revelation 19.
He never stops reigning. He is King, He is God, He is the Lamb.
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:09 AM
 
309 posts, read 296,889 times
Reputation: 60
Oops....Sorry Mike I forgot all about asking you this, but here you go. Please forgive me for taking so long.

[quote=Mike555;14203727]
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post

Here you go.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

I read this site now you may extend the courtesy and read this one Exposing those who contradict the truth of Universalism

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

A reply to this paper is here
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

Wordgems - Time: Aionios


If I am correct, William Barclay was a Universalist. But His renderings on “aionios” when used of God “Aionios God”, IMO are incorrect. Aionios does not mean eternal. The rendering should be “God of the Ages”.

Aionios---An In Depth Study

A Quote from the ‘bible-truths’ site I listed….. Some years since Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin(13) patiently and candidly traced this word through the Classics, finding the noun frequently in nearly all the writers, but not meeting the adjective until Plato, its inventor, used it. He states, as the result of his protracted and exhaustive examination from the beginning down to Plato, "We have the whole evidence of seven Greek writers, extending through about six centuries, down to the age of Plato, who make use of Ain, in common with other words; and no one of themEVER employs it in the sense of eternity."

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

This critique just cracks me up. Have you read this Mike. Are you telling me that all the ORTHODOX SCHOLARS that you use are ALL MODERN scholars (I’m willing to bet some aren’t). This guy is complaining about scholars that are NOT modern. Give me a break. This guys paper just gives me and everyone else the permission to “just wait 100 years and we can call all of Mike’s scholars incorrect, because it is now the year 2110 but his scholars wrote their ideas back in 2010”. This guy just presents a ‘he said, she said’ argument against the scholars that Smith uses and the one’s he and you use. I mean come on. Why don’t we just all search the web for articles that prove that Islam is the way or Buddah or Santa Claus, and post them here to try to prove to you that Christianity is not the way.

And the argument that this guy makes that an adjective CAN take on more force than its noun, is just ridiculous. He brings up his major PROOF of this by stating the word “timeless” and saying that it takes on more then its noun ‘time’. Come on Mike, your smarter than this. If I stated the word “timeless” are you going to tell me that you are thinking of the noun ‘month’, NO you would be thinking of “time” to deduct what the adjective means. If I said “priceless” are you going to render this to the noun ‘duck’, No you would think of the noun “price” to deduct what the adjective means. I can’t believe I am even commenting on this. But come on, ANY self respecting grammar teacher would tell this guy he is wrong.

If you had the sentence “I have a PRICELESS ring.” and had to change it to a sentence using its NOUN, it would be “There is no amount of PRICE I would sell my ring for.” Both sentences mean exactly the same thing.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

Read this: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


The following is from an older thread:

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

I don’t know where you are getting your information here Mike, because I just looked these up in 4 different Greek translations and NONE of them have the adjective form of “aion”. Luke 1:33 and Matt 6:13 have “aionas” which is the NOUN in the Accusative Plural Masculine form. Luke 1:55 and John 6:51 have “aiona”, which is the NOUN in the Accusative SINGULAR Masculine form. None of these are the “adjective” AIONIOS here Mike. So I guess these DON’T mean ‘eternal’ by YOUR own rule then, Right??? Please give me the source where you show these in the “adjective” form. Not only this, the ASM form is in the SINGULAR, so are you admitting that this means “age” then, because it is not written EMPHATICALLY, as you say??

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

Actually No! the word “forever” was two words in the 14th century and became one word around the 16th century (I think). The word “ever” is most likely a form of Germanic, IMO.

Now pay attention to this Mike. The word “eon” is from the Latin word “aeon” which is from the Greek word “aion”. And they ALL mean age, life, era of some sort. You should really read the following site to see how much you really FOLLOW the Holy Roman Church, that you dislike so much, when it comes to the roots of this word “eternity”, which comes from the Latin “aeternus”

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity

Now lets look at this silly little phrase “forever and ever” that you like so much. If one says to you “I will believe in God FOREVER”, you would state it is for ETERNITY. So tell me why OH WHY would someone have to say to you “I will believe God FOREVER AND EVER” if one ‘forever’ would do then. Just look at the phrase Mike. Everybody look at it.

“FOREVER AND EVER”

It doesn’t even make sense in ENGLISH. Its just ridiculous. Its not even EMPHATIC in English, much less Greek. The fact is Mike, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make the word “eternity” EMPHATIC. The only reason it is translated this way, IMO, is because the ET translator was TOO EMBARRASSED to translate it “ETERNITY and ETERNITY” or “ETNERNITY to ETNERNITIES” or “ETERNITIES and ETERNITIES”. Can you not see the stupidity in this???? The proper translation is “unto the ages of the ages”

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

No, you and others only WANT them to mean Eternity, but they do not. I have already addressed this issue with you before.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

OH..I thought an ETERNITY is defined as NOT having a BEGINNING or an END. Well I guess this ‘eternity’ you are talking about has a BEGINNING then, Right?? See how silly this is getting.

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Nope…..unto the ages of the ages

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

No, this is the only excuse you can come up with to keep your “eternal punishment” alive. I have pointed out to you before that there are several occurrences of the phrase “age [SINGULAR] and age [SINGULAR]”. Again, if the phrase “unto the ages [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL]” EMPHATICALLY means ETERNITY as you say, then the SUNGULAR form “age to the age” (Heb 1:8) MUST emphatically mean “half way”, right?? Or maybe the SINGULAR/PLURAL form “age of the age(s)” (Eph 3:21) must emphatically mean three quarters of the way, right?? Or are you going to stretch this EMPHATIC excuse or yours so far as to say they ALL mean eternity. Of course you are. Tell me Mike, what does the phrases with “age/age” and “age/ages” mean if ONLY the “plural/plural” form EMPHATICALLY means Eternal?????

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

Actually, yes, all these plus Phil 4:20 are talking of Christ, but his dominion will end (1Co 15:28). Its funny you don’t bring this verse up. And in Rev 22:5, the “they” refers to those having “his name in their foreheads” (are ‘they’ going to reign for eternity??)

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

It looks as though you are ignoring many things here Mike. Things like trying to trick people into thinking that the scriptures show ‘adjectives’ when they are really showing ‘NOUNS’. Things like taking ‘aion’ phrases in such forms as SINGULAR/SINGULAR and SINGULAR/PLURAL and PLURAL/PLURAL to “emphatically” mean ETERNAL in “EVERY” case. It seems you would stretch this “emphatic” teaching of yours as far as it will go.

Eternal means eternal.


When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt:



www.gcc-am.org/Sermons/First_John_15-20080518.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Thayer's and Smith's Greek Lexicon

Aionios:

Without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be.
Without beginning
Without end, Never to cease, everlasting

NAS Word Useage-68
eternal-66, eternity-1, forever 1
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,317,041 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Um, sciota, Christ is still reigning in Revelation 20 and 21.
Sovereignties and authorities and power are still in force in Revelation 20 and 21.

So 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is not summed up in Revelation 19.
He is reigning in Revelation 22 as well.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev 21 and 22 is post ROTD, and so is where Christ hands the kingdom over to God in 1 Cor 15. So therefore, the New Heavens and Earth is post resurrection of the dead, where death is defeated is post the resurrection of the dead, asnd so is 1 Cor 15 is where death is defeated, post resurrection of the dead.

I have much much more if you like....but as the scriptures have once again, discredited your outlandish claim of there being "another " New Heavens and Earth.
A false gospel you preach.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:12 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,532,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Um, sciota, Christ is still reigning in Revelation 20 and 21.
Sovereignties and authorities and power are still in force in Revelation 20 and 21.

So 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is not summed up in Revelation 19.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He never stops reigning. He is King, He is God, He is the Lamb.
You see sciota, that's the problem with believing wrongly on one thing. It affects the clear statements of other verses. As long as Christ is reigning in the universe that means there is insubjection in the universe. God will not allow insubjection to mar His universe for eternity.

Christ does quit reigning because all will be subject to Him in the heavens and on the earth and He leaves nothing unsubject. The only One not subject to Christ is God. (Read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 if you don't believe me.)

Christ is not His God. God is the God of Christ. Christ will hand over the kingdom to His God and Father.

Clearly Universalism refutes IPA.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Brian, how can this view be considered one of love? Where is the choice in the matter? If I had a wife who did not make the "personal decision" to love me, then how could she love me? How empty would her affections toward me be? What would bring a king greater glory: having people who he programed to praise him, praising him, or to have a host of people with free will to make the personal decision to give him all the glory?

Those who have the love of God do not decide to have the love of God, the love of God is either an inate part of who you are or it is not. We recieve this love when we are made new, reborn in the spirit. This is the complete love of God even for his enemies.

You dont choose to be reborn just like you did choose to be born the first time, it just happens to you in Gods own time.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,145,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
HalfNelson......

If you can choose Christ solely upon your own freewill, then maybe YOU can explain what all these verses mean to us then, because Sir Mike will not answer them for us.

No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will.

Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.

Does man have a free will?

Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…

Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".

It is God who moves one to do this or that….

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.

God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.

Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ………..
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can)
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants

Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (Also See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).

Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God predestines ALL to His own will….

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

He controls everything we do.....

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……

John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?

But where did this power really come from?

Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).

Can we really do good, of our own selves?

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):


This is the King of Assyria talking….
Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)

What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want: (This is God talking!!)

Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .

Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:

Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood

This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?

Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?

Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...

Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

What happens to a prophet who is deceived?

Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Well thats understanding, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..

Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined BEFORE to be done.

Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye BE LED of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)

Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares to YOU. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily) HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.


..............One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he ask the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)

And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe.


On behalf of my UR brethren, I must say sorry for repeating these words from another thread, but I want to know what THEY think ALL these verses mean, if it does NOT mean that God is Soveriegn.

If one cannot see that God HIMSELF guides mankind, he must be totally BLINDED by their beliefs. If that is NOT what these verses mean, then please tell us what they mean. If we are SO INCORRECT in our thinking then tell us what they really mean then. To ignore them would only prove our point.

Mike refused to address any of these scriptures, only to give me links to read on the "freewill" of man. In respect to him, I read them. All I read was that Man was given a "choice" since creation and has chosen INCORRECTLY EVERYTIME, except when he was touched by God. This is all through the scripture. All we hear from most of Christianity is "DO....Oh man...DO". All Universalists that I have ever known came to the point of just "KNOWING THAT THEY CANNOT DO IT!!", therefore they dont want to guide themselves with "DO....Oh Man....DO" anymore, but rather let Christ BE THERE MIND instead of their own wills running theirselves. It is so much easier to DIE to one's self (and to WHATEVER will they have, free or otherwise).

If one must hold on to this "idol of the heart" called "freewill", then they MUST contend with these verses I have exposed to them. They will haunt you if you dont. Heck I will haunt you with them. So tell me what they mean if we the "UR's" are so wrong.
What a post! Just read it now, it was a blessing to me! Thanks!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,145,960 times
Reputation: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
forgive me for truncating your post, but I just wanted to save some space. After reading through several of your texts and reading your interpretation on Peter's situation I started to see where UR's are going off course. People often times cannot draw the distinction between God knowing the future vs Him causing it. Peter's denial of Christ was predicted, but it was not predestined. There is a huge difference. I may know that if I leave cookies in a certain place, my nephew will certainly take one, however he does so out of his own choice, not because I forced him to such an action. God sees the end from the beginning, so he knows what will happen, but that does not mean that He causes it to happen. Christ knew that His own people would reject Him, but that does not mean that He caused them to reject Him. How could Christ have been upset or saddened by Judas' actions if He was the one that caused them? God did not want His people to be disobedient and have to wander in the desert for 40 years, but He knew it was going to happen. God didn't want sin to enter His universe but He saw that it would happen and planned accordingly.
Hi HalfNelson,
I'm sorry I didn't respond to you before. I have difficulty keeping track of posts and who responds. (Firefox should make a plug-in that helps with this!) I was not ignoring you by any means. )I know this is another response, not to mine, but I think mine was about the same issue.)

I liked your explanation that God "predicts" the outcome but doesn't "cause" it.

(For all I know, you may be right. We can only speculate based on what we are understanding at any given moment (unless a specific revelation is given, I suppose), and so I don't want to say "I'm right" or "someone else is not right." A lot of that is happening on this forum, and I find it disturbs peace..)
Tangent!

Anyway, maybe God does predict. I think He knew Adam and Eve like the backs of His hands. I don't think their fall was a surprise, I think He made us "good" but not "perfect" in order for us to fall. And yes, maybe it didn't cause it, but let it happen for a reason. (The fact that the Tree of Knowledge was placed in the "center" of the garden confirms this to me. Again, on a carnal comparision level, a mother in her right mind would NEVER put a loaded gun IN THE PLAYPEN and tell the kids not to touch it. It's just against her nature. I use the example of a gun and not cookies, because the lives of Adam and Eve were at stake.)

SO, is God's nature inferior to ours? I think not. That's why I believe He has ways and a plan that we have a hard time digesting. Why would He cause us to suffer, seeing that He loves us MORE than our MOMS?? There must be a reason. And the only reasonable reason I have heard so far is that God is a God who has suffered. And since He loves us and wants us to be in relationship with Him, He requires that we suffer too. Of course, some deal with suffering better than others, but if we understand that His hand is upon us while He causes us to suffer, we know and feel that we can make it through. This is how I'm seeing suffering today.

As far as prophesy goes, I think that there are times when God does in fact harden hearts. He blinds, He loosens, He does everything, but always with His plan in mind. I think Judas was chosen by God ("have not I chosen you, and one of you has a devil?").
I used to be afraid to say that God causes evil to happen. But the many many verses which indicate His divine plan all through the ages means that evil serves a purpose. (Even those who adhere to free will, really have themselves to thank in the end, because even if God didn't want evil, He needed it for His creatures to "choose" to follow Him. So evil is good, according to this line of thinking.)

I have a friend who is dying of cancer as I write this. He's 47. Was this part of his "free will?" I don't think so.
Is this part of God's plan for his path to walk? I think so. It's not a "punishment," even though it is not pleasant. God can do whatever He wants, and that is what He will do. He calls each of us to a higher place, as He sees fit, when He sees right.
Sometimes He changes plans when we pray. Sometimes He doesn't.
Suffering is the road we all have to take, some sooner, some later.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:03 PM
 
309 posts, read 296,889 times
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Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
What a post! Just read it now, it was a blessing to me! Thanks!

Blessings,
brian
Your quite welcome Brian, and let praise be to God. GB

Joe
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,403,505 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi HalfNelson,
I'm sorry I didn't respond to you before. I have difficulty keeping track of posts and who responds. (Firefox should make a plug-in that helps with this!) I was not ignoring you by any means. )I know this is another response, not to mine, but I think mine was about the same issue.)

I liked your explanation that God "predicts" the outcome but doesn't "cause" it.

(For all I know, you may be right. We can only speculate based on what we are understanding at any given moment (unless a specific revelation is given, I suppose), and so I don't want to say "I'm right" or "someone else is not right." A lot of that is happening on this forum, and I find it disturbs peace..)
Tangent!

Anyway, maybe God does predict. I think He knew Adam and Eve like the backs of His hands. I don't think their fall was a surprise, I think He made us "good" but not "perfect" in order for us to fall. And yes, maybe it didn't cause it, but let it happen for a reason. (The fact that the Tree of Knowledge was placed in the "center" of the garden confirms this to me. Again, on a carnal comparision level, a mother in her right mind would NEVER put a loaded gun IN THE PLAYPEN and tell the kids not to touch it. It's just against her nature. I use the example of a gun and not cookies, because the lives of Adam and Eve were at stake.)

SO, is God's nature inferior to ours? I think not. That's why I believe He has ways and a plan that we have a hard time digesting. Why would He cause us to suffer, seeing that He loves us MORE than our MOMS?? There must be a reason. And the only reasonable reason I have heard so far is that God is a God who has suffered. And since He loves us and wants us to be in relationship with Him, He requires that we suffer too. Of course, some deal with suffering better than others, but if we understand that His hand is upon us while He causes us to suffer, we know and feel that we can make it through. This is how I'm seeing suffering today.

As far as prophesy goes, I think that there are times when God does in fact harden hearts. He blinds, He loosens, He does everything, but always with His plan in mind. I think Judas was chosen by God ("have not I chosen you, and one of you has a devil?").
I used to be afraid to say that God causes evil to happen. But the many many verses which indicate His divine plan all through the ages means that evil serves a purpose. (Even those who adhere to free will, really have themselves to thank in the end, because even if God didn't want evil, He needed it for His creatures to "choose" to follow Him. So evil is good, according to this line of thinking.)

I have a friend who is dying of cancer as I write this. He's 47. Was this part of his "free will?" I don't think so.
Is this part of God's plan for his path to walk? I think so. It's not a "punishment," even though it is not pleasant. God can do whatever He wants, and that is what He will do. He calls each of us to a higher place, as He sees fit, when He sees right.
Sometimes He changes plans when we pray. Sometimes He doesn't.
Suffering is the road we all have to take, some sooner, some later.

Blessings,
brian
I'm sorry about your friend, Brian. I would guess that cancer was absolutely not something that he chose to go through.

I guess, in the end, suffering can make us love more or hate more.

We can't really identify with others who are hurting if we have a perfect little life in a perfect sun-shiny world. We would not be able to identify with or love anyone. We would end up being rather superficial.

I know Suffering Road is not the road I would have chosen. (Hey, that looks like a great road to go down. Nah).
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