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Old 05-16-2010, 02:04 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
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Wow...there is so much half-truth mixed together with no-truth that it's hard to know where to begin....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it plain to anyone who will open their eyes that faith in Christ does not mean that man gets the credit. There is no theory about it.
It's true that man can take no credit whatsoever for salvation, but not for the reasons you think. Faith, spiritual faith that is, is a GIFT given to those born of the Spirit, and this GIFT is RECEIVED by those whom the Spirit regenerates (brings to life). Spiritual faith DOES NOT come from man's volitional will or by any work of the flesh.

1Co 4:7 for who doth make thee to differ? and what hast thou, that thou didst not receive? and if thou didst also receive, why dost thou glory as not having received?

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
Eph 4:7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
Eph 4:8 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --

Joh 6:63 the Spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

An excellent book on the subject of man's will, and what role it plays in salvation, is a book written by Martin Luther during the early years of the Protestant Reformation, titled: Bondage of the Will. Here it is:

De Servo Arbitrio “On the Enslaved Will” or The Bondage of Will | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Most of your arguments (the same one's used by Erasmus) are throughly (and scripturally) debunked by Luther.

Also, your views of decisional regeneration (synergism) is another subject that should be examined (or rather exposed) more fully. Here are two articles for those interested:

"Decisional Regeneration" - James E. Adams

and

Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx

Quote:
The Scriptures are clear and have been presented. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.
However, what someone teaches concerning scripture, may not be clear or even truthful. So yes, scripture will not contradict scripture if interpreted correctly (therein lies the rub), but scripture may very well contradict man's teachings, such as your's, or even Chafer's eight volume set of dispensational theology .

Quote:
Believers are sons of God by Adoption only.
Let's review the concept of "adoption" or being adopted. Why do you think the Holy Spirit chose to use adoption as a way to present spiritual truth? Well, we could ask ourselves: How many children do we know that were adopted because of their faith in the person who adopted them? I know of none. How many adopted children choose and select the one who will adopt them? Are adopted children given an invitation to choose and decide who their parent will be? Many children are adopted at birth (or as young infants) and NEVER KNOW that they were adopted until later in life, if even then? Adoption is said to be by the GOOD PLEASURE OF GODS WILL, not by the will of the one being adopted:

Eph 1:5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Adoption IS NOT accomplished by anything the adopted person does. Adoption IS WHOLLY according to the WILL OF GOD, not by man, or by a choice or a decision (volitional will I think is how you put it) of man. It is ALL OF GOD.

Quote:
Universalists don't understand what reconciliation means.
This may or may not be true. On the other hand, what you teach (Arminianism) DOES discredit and contradict the very truth of universal reconciliation that IS presented in the scriptures.

Quote:
With regard to reconciliation, here is the doctrine. Here is what it means...

Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His Cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Universal reconciliation is not the salvation of all men. The two don't equate because of the issue of man's volition being involved.
If you read the above scripture that you've quoted, reconciliation DOES EQUATE with the final salvation of those reconciled.

Look, read verse 21 again, it tells us why they were reconciled: "in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach". And further, Paul states this fact even more clearly in his letter to the church at Rome, that having been reconciled (past tense), we shall be (future tense) SAVED IN HIS LIFE:

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

So yes, being reconciled DOES EQUATE (or WILL EQUATE in the future) to being saved. If you believe that reconciliation was accomplished universally for all, than you believe in universal salvation. At least Paul did.

Quote:
Reconciliation means to make at peace.
Yes it does. And if you believe this (and you should), why do you suggest that God will set on fire, for eternity, the majority whom He reconciled and made PEACE with? Reconciliation is a good reason God WILL NOT set them on fire. Those reconciled are NO LONGER His enemies. You'll have to accept the fact that God reconciled all to himself, as scritpure says, or contradict scripture and say God did not. Which is it?

Quote:
The work of Christ on the Cross is threefold in its direction. Redemption is sinward (man is redeemed from sin), and propitiation is Godward (God the Father is satisfied with the work of Christ on the Cross). Reconciliation is manward. (2 Cor 5:18,19; Eph 2:16; Col 1:20).
I'm not sure what you mean by "manward". If you mean directional, IOW toward man, I would have to disagree. We are told that God was in Christ reconciling the world to HIMSELF. It is man that is being reconciled to (or toward) God. Not God to man. God did not sin and needs no reconciliation. Here, let's read 2 Cor. 5:18-19:

2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

There is a lot more to cover in your post, but I'll stop here for now. It should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this thread that what you teach, namely that God will eternally condemn the majority of those whom He has reconciled to Himself, DOES NOT square up with scripture.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:47 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,607 times
Reputation: 60
[quote=Mike555;14199000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

Universalism is a lie from the mouth of Satan. The intent is to lull the gullible into a false sense of security about their eternal fate.

You seem now to be fully caught up in the cult of universalism. It matters not how sincere someone is in their beliefs. A person can 100% sincere and yet be 100% wrong. The lie of universalism is of Satan. It attracts the gullible, and those who can't face reality.

Each of the verses I listed show that once you die it is too late. As you have turned away from the truth and bought into a lie, I rather suspect that you shall remain in that lie.

The reality of hell is just that. Reality. Those who are wise will heed the warnings that God has given. The foolish will disregard the warning.
Mike...

Please provide me a link or your proof on why the Greek/Hebrew words "aion/olawm" means "eternal" so that I may address it on this thread.
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:41 PM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You are living proof of that, and even after all you've read about Universalism, you don't even know what it is, or else you purposely spread lies about the belief.

Universalism is the false teaching that all men will be saved. That is completely unscriptural.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Shall not see life is an absolute. There is nothing relative about it. There is no time factor involved. It is final and refers to the eternal destruction of the soul in Gehenna-the lake of fire-hell.

From the P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N website.

Perish (622)

(Apollumi from apo - away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Rev :11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meanng of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' ( Mt 13:42,50)


( Romans 2:9-12 Commentary )
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Perish (622)

(Apollumi from apo - away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Rev :11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meanng of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' ( Mt 13:42,50)
Well, you do realize that the Greek word apollumi describes the very person that Jesus came to seek and to save, right?:

Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'

The word "lost" here in the Greek is:
G622 ἀπόλλυμι, apóllumi.

This is the exact same word used for those that you say God will cast into an eternal hell fire. However, Jesus said that He came to seek and to save the apollumi (the lost). So which is it? Did Jesus save the lost or not? And who are we to believe? Your teaching (the lie of ET), or that Jesus does and accomplishes what we sets out to do? I'm going to go with Jesus, and so should you:

Joh 4:34 Jesus *said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to accomplish His work.

Notice: Jesus says his work (food) is to do the will of God and accomplish His work. And what is His work that Jesus will accomplish: To seek and to save the apollumi (the lost)!

Your doctrines Mike, tell us that you're a very sick person. That's why Jesus also said:

Mat 9:12 But when He heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

You need Jesus my friend . The Good Physician. Not a man made physician found in an eight volume set of theology. But rather the real Physician from Heaven. Believe in the Good News, believe in the Gospel! Repent from ET!
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL What about the very next verse? John 3:17...For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

So the "WORLD" is just believers? How does verse 17 fit into your everlasting hellfire/condemnation paradigm?

The son was sent to save... does he save the world? Not if they end up in a fiery lake of torture!
How does John 3 begin and in what context...remember Kosmos does not denote entire world or earth, but rather the "world" where and to whom the speaker is speaking to, and in this case, it is a legal rep of the law. This passage denotes that Christ is redeeming and saving the world in which those whom are bound to the covenant, namely the Jews, however, consistently throughout the gospel, the law, now transformed and written on our hearts, Christ did indeed fulfill, which now applies to both Jew and Gentile, both whom are True Israelites, and specifically, those bound to the covenant.

Christ's death is an offering, within the framework of the law, now bound in our hearts, but still the law, and that law, is a covenant, and one must enter into this covenant, to have their sins forgiven.

That is the message of John 3:16
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Brian, how can this view be considered one of love? Where is the choice in the matter? If I had a wife who did not make the "personal decision" to love me, then how could she love me? How empty would her affections toward me be? What would bring a king greater glory: having people who he programed to praise him, praising him, or to have a host of people with free will to make the personal decision to give him all the glory?
Compared to God we are blind foolish children, or infinitely less ... Where is the love in not letting your children do whatever they want, and controlling their lives?

The fact is the only reason someone doesn't choose to love their God and their neighbor, is because they are blind and cannot see, they are def and cannot hear, their hearts are stone so they cannot know the love of God. Only when God heals them and gives them eyes to see, and ears to hear, and a heart of flesh, will they know and receive the love of God. Its not a matter of human choice, its a matter of the healing power of the spirit of God and his teaching us through righteous judgments.

God does not love us because we first love him, we love him because he first loved us ...
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:08 PM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
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[quote=joeallcomm;14201683]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Mike...

Please provide me a link or your proof on why the Greek/Hebrew words "aion/olawm" means "eternal" so that I may address it on this thread.
Here you go.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


The following is from an older thread:

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.


When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt:

Quote:
One more observation on the word eternal that affirms the eternality of our salvation is the usage of this word. Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie writes that 'this same word is also used for eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2) and for the eternal God (1 Timothy 1:17). If one of these is temporary then the others must be too. Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Revelation 15:7) of eternal life (John 10:28) and of eternal torment (Revelation 14:11). Again, there is no way to escape the conclusion that if God is everlasting so is punishment in the lake of fir. There is no annihilation and no restoration. Universalism often takes the form today that all will be saved without any kind of punishment. It is based on misinterpretations of Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Colossians 1:20, but it completely ignores the Biblical teaching of the diverse destinies of the righteous and the wicked. ( Matthew 25:46; John 5:29; Romans 2:8-10 & Revelation 20:10-15.) [Ryrie, Charles C., A Survey of Bible Doctrine, p.184.
http://www.gcc-am.org/Sermons/First_...5-20080518.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Thayer's and Smith's Greek Lexicon

Aionios:

Without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be.
Without beginning
Without end, Never to cease, everlasting

NAS Word Useage-68
eternal-66, eternity-1, forever 1
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,386,389 times
Reputation: 437
[quote=Mike555;14203727]
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post

Here you go.

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


The following is from an older thread:

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.


When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.

When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.

Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.

Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.

Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).

Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).

Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...

Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.

I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.

And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.

Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)

Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'

Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.

Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.

The same phrase is used in

Phil 4:20 (God the Father);

2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).

Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever

Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.

In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10

Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...

Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.

And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.

Eternal means eternal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt:



www.gcc-am.org/Sermons/First_John_15-20080518.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Thayer's and Smith's Greek Lexicon

Aionios:

Without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be.
Without beginning
Without end, Never to cease, everlasting

NAS Word Useage-68
eternal-66, eternity-1, forever 1

Well, before this thread gets shut down for being completely off topic, I will post some of the ways the Bible uses "FOREVER," "ETERNAL," "EVERLASTING," etc.

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).


Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).


The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).


Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):


Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).


The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).


Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.


The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).


The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).


The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).


God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17)


Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).


"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).


Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).




From Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>

Last edited by herefornow; 05-16-2010 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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That's an impressive study Herefornow...thanks.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
That's an impressive study Herefornow...thanks.
No problem, Ilene.
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